Some of us don't have much power. I denounced it online several times, that's all I can do.
People like Lebron James, who thinks of himself like a freedom fighter, when he criticized China he ended up saying he was misinformed and he wasn't educated about the issue.
He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to be reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some nazi collaborators did.
> I denounced it online several times, that's all I can do.
You can do more. Write your representatives. Call their offices (both Democrat and Republican), and buy fewer Chinese products, even it costs more money.
Please keep in mind I'm not criticizing you here, just saying you could literally do more if you wanted to.
I do get annoyed with people who "complain online'. That's just a waste of time. Call your representatives. They will respond to thousands of phone calls from constituents saying "do X".
For some reason we think Facebook is our democracy, not our elected representatives.
Let me clarify: I believe it's a waste of time if we're also not complaining to our elected representatives.
If 10,000 people read this article and got annoyed, and then we made 10,000 phone calls, things would happen. If 10 people pick up the phone... not so much.
> Call your representatives. They will respond to thousands of phone calls from constituents saying "do X".
What do you say to people who don't really believe this? I don't think I'm the only one who looks at the political scene (and much of "reality" as it is projected into our brains through the media) and thinks it's largely theatre. Kayfabe.
Oh sure, you can surely find discrete examples of where the system worked as advertised, but are these examples actually representative of the overall truth?
I can't shake this feeling that if I (or most any other person from this forum who has worked on large, complicated projects with many interconnected moving parts) was tasked with managing the affairs of this planet, the organization and means of communication/documentation would not look anything at all like what we've seen with our very eyes, for many decades.
How does a person sort out what is actually true anymore?
> What do you say to people who don't really believe this?
Nothing really. They've lost faith in democracy and have given up on the country. What else is there to talk about? If you have no faith in the system and don't want to participate then I'm not sure what you want or you're expecting.
I would add that if voting/protesting isn't enough to feel like it's "doing something" there is always the option of fixing things from within. I know that's a bit of a fairy tale idea for many, and few seem to have the convictions to actually do so once they are in a position to, but that doesn't mean that YOU, dear reader, would fail the same way.
Seriously, run for city council or something. Fix the bugs the same way you would an interconnected system: find where things (money, proposals, solutions) drop out, find where things are miscommunicated, optimize, upgrade, and secure the edge systems that directly interact with the client (the people).
It might take a lot of effort and people doing this, and many many years, but I think it is a more viable long term solution than waiting for things to magically get better enough that you feel like a vote will suffice.
"Democracy" is a principle - our current implementation of it is but one of many possibilities to go about it.
Democracy (in general, and our rather arbitrary flavor of it) is only one form of governance, is there some reason we're bound to this approach? Nothing else shall be considered?
> and have given up on the country
This is speculation - it is not possible to know the thoughts, dreams, intentions of other people with accuracy.
> If you have no faith in the system and don't want to participate then I'm not sure what you want or you're expecting.
I believe I want something similar to what the BLM protesters believe they want, who are also displeased with the outputs of "the system" as it is. I'm weary of the "my way or the highway, reality is what we say it is" approach to "Democratic" governance theatre.
There's a huge difference. China needs the west to keep buying their stuff. China had a huge economic development thanks to the money from the west. They don't even have to care about their internal economy as long as billions and billions flow in from the west.
Now, if we change that by let's say moving factories back home or to Africa, they'll be in trouble.
If you're a Chinese citizen, first of all you don't have a voice. The CCP owns the country, they make the rules, and economically they don't have the upper hand. That's why the only thing they do is threaten any foreign official who won't submit to them.
> China needs the west to keep buying their stuff. China had a huge economic development thanks to the money from the west. They don't even have to care about their internal economy as long as billions and billions flow in from the west.
This seems... economically confused. Billions flowing in from the West reflect the fact that China's internal economy is strong. If it fell apart, no money would flow in.
It means that the productivity of the Chinese economy, and thus the ability of the CCP to siphon off some of that for things like building mass detention facilities, is dependent upon foreign demand. It is doubtful that China has enough domestic consumption demand to keep everyone gainfully employed if foreign demand dried up. But it’s hard to say what would actually happen.
> and thus the ability of the CCP to siphon off some of that for things like building mass detention facilities, is dependent upon foreign demand
Way off the mark. You could have an economy on par with North Korea and build those facilities. China's economy is 100+ times larger than it needs to be to build the facilities they're building in Xinjiang. If you rolled their economy back to 1990 on a GDP per capita basis, they could still get it done with zero problems. Concrete, barbed wire, guards, guns and slave labor are most of the necessary ingredients. The most primitive of nations have what's necessary to do it.
It depends on a lot of factors such as who and how many see your posts, how much you consume and how much you boycott etc. If you’re alone the impact is small but if others are starting to follow suit the number goes up fast and the voice becomes stronger.
It is easy to think the impact is nill and that’s exactly how the opressor wants you to think, no wonder the divide and conquer is a strategy that works. But every movement starts off with a few who believe they make a difference and eventually it picks up a critical mass
Let me contrast that with something: opening a dialogue outside of an echo chamber.
For example, a woman of Han descent who had her purse snatched by a Uighur kid talked about feeling nervous and clutching her bag when she passed someone on the street. Instead of lecturing her about systemic problems as a first resort, I started by finding common ground: her experiences as a Chinese woman studying abroad in Japan, and the systemic racism she experienced.
The ally training skills I learned in the US were helpful. The more typical high-minded condescension, in contrast, tends to be counterproductive in my experience.
Yeah... I hear you and I think there’s a valid point here, but let’s not draw false equivalencies. Mass forced detention of entire ethnic groups is not comparable to systemic racism. One can argue that the US is systemically racist but we did elect a black president.
==He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to be reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some nazi collaborators did.==
All of this could be said about our current President and his family. He has far more power than LeBron James, maybe we should hold him accountable?
Who cares? Lebron James and yourself are both adults capable of taking stances and acting on them regardless the actions and behaviors of the president of the US.
To play devil's advocate: the west is now in a soft Cold War with China. Given China's opaqueness, any media report about China has to be taken with a pinch of salt, especially considering how the media has acted as the mouthpiece of the state in the past (most notably in the entire Iraq WMD fiasco).
So while I certainly don't doubt that China is oppressing its minorities, I'm also loathe to believe every media report about it.
I know this isn't a popular opinion, but very objectively, western media does not have a track record of being truthful when it comes to Cold War opponents.
What a weird take. Every administration before our current one appeased China despite their obvious human rights issues. This is the first admin to challenge the issue.
The weird take is going after LeBron James like it is his job to conduct international diplomacy, while giving Trump a break on his personal Chinese business interests.
If all he did was to not speak up, your argument is totally valid. But the truth is he actively tried to silent others by saying Daryl Morey was "misinformed and not educated on the situation", when nobody asked for his opinion about the matter.
First off, Trump’s foreign policy on China is working as their economy contracts. Or do you want an invasion?
Second, Lebron can do much to educate himself on China, as he’s already an activist in other areas, and he has millions of followers. But it looks like he’s educated himself on who pays his paycheck.
Lebron is free to say and support whatever he pleases. We’re all free to stop listening, stop watching and stop buying what he’s selling.
Actually, in a strange way LeBron James has way more power than Trump in regards to cultural pressure that can result in change. Trump has been using this issue as an excuse to ramp up pressure in the south china sea among other things, but people don’t believe him to actually care.
Hes been quoted, by one of his own hires, as telling the Chinese that they're "doing exactly the right thing" so people are right to think he doesnt care.
Thank you for your whataboutism. OP brought up Lebron James because he likes to publicly moralize about how certain lives matter and ignores an actual genocide in the country keeping him paid.
Should we spend more time on LeBron James' hypocrisy or the President of the United States' hypocrisy? One is the most powerful person in the world, the other is a basketball player. Focusing on LeBron is just another red herring to distract.
Even Islamic countries that should traditionally be sympathetic to the cause of Uighurs turn a blind eye to it e.g. even Pakistan does not mention it because of their close relationship to China. If Nations are scared you can imagine how difficult it will be for individuals, even if you may think they have a lot of power.
> I denounced it online several times, that's all I can do.
You can talk to your representatives about it. You can start actively boycotting Chinese-made products (not so easy, I know). You can donate to NGOs such as the UHRP (Uyghur Human Rights Project). You can follow them on Twitter.
It's not like Lebron James will solve this either, so don't blame it on him.
A positive view would be that you could say that even the NBA needs to "pick it's battles" and can't do all of BLM, HK, Uyghurs, etc.
A more grim view would be that in the end companies will do what's best for them. Currently It's in the NBA's best interest to support BLM since it affects their base. HK, Uyghurs, etc. doesn't really affect them and fighting a battle for it doesn't help them in anyway.
It sounds like you may not be aware that the NBA has been actively and specifically blocking criticism of China. It sounds like currently they've reversed that policy on at least what custom jerseys they'll print, but only after a lot of pressure. The NBA is not neutrally "permitting" their players to protest things if they happen to want to, they have taken an extremely active role in what political actions are and are not allowed, and anti-China protests have consistently been on the "not allowed" side, by the league. The NBA, as an organization, is not a neutral; they have chosen sides.
I am well aware of the NBA's actions. The specific question was about an NBA player, which would be the NBA Players Association, not the league itself. They work for the league, in the same way many of the companies HN Readers work for do business in China.
I’m voting and campaigning for politicians that I might disagree with on 99% of all issues for the sole reason that they’re willing and capable of standing up to China.
For reference, my views are aligned with Sanders but I’d vote for Trump solely based on his actions towards China.
I’d also say boycotting Made in China and companies kowtowing to China isn’t as difficult as people say. You might not be able to boycott it 100%, but it’s not that hard to find alternatives to 90+% of the products.
I am! It was a horrible mistake and I'm glad he's gone now. But to be clear, Bolton did the vast majority of his damage during the Bush administration.
His trade war is hurting China a lot - companies are being forced to leave due to the high tariffs, Chinese companies are suffering (for instance, Huawei not being allowed to use Android, banned from using chips with US tech, etc.), TAIPEI Act and Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act was also signed under his administration. He’s the first US President to speak directly with Taiwan’s President since 1979, he made the largest arms sale to Taiwan in the past few decades, China Mobile were blocked from offering services in US, Huawei is being blocked from building 5G networks (even paying other nations to block them as well), TikTok and WeChat likely to be banned from the App Stores as well (hopefully worldwide), he keep reminding people that the Wuhan Virus originated in China and that they’re responsible for the pandemic, China about to lose the developing country WTO status, HK special status revoked, etc.
There’s really not a single person who’s done more to stand up to China than Trump has. Just look at China’s reputation today compared to 4 years ago.. the world is finally starting to wake up to the dangers of the CCP. And I really don’t care what his motives are.. I know he probably couldn’t care less about the Uyghurs, but his actions towards China are helping the hundreds of millions of people currently and about to suffer from the CCP.
I wouldn’t assume he doesn’t care. He is human don’t forget. I do wonder how much the tougher stance towards China is specific to this administration. Can we know that a different administration would not have acted similarly. Maybe not the willingness to increase taxes on trade quite so aggressively, which is odd coming from a republican but the results have been encouraging with the American economy hitting record highs despite his much vilified trade war.
CCP’s atrocities are nothing new.. the only thing that’s new is that we finally have a couple of leaders that are beginning to stand up to China (such as USA and India), and Trump’s actions are forcing other nations hands.. for instance, Canada got dragged into it when Meng Wanzhou was rightfully arrested, to which the CCP responded with arbitrary arrests of Canadians in China.
Biden went on record saying he would end Trump’s China tariffs, and we can also see how little the EU and other western countries are doing to stand up to China (and how little Biden did during his 8 years’ vice presidency)..
Having to fall back into unsubstantiated hyperbole like "worst president in history" and "screwing the country" probably doesn't help to win anyone over.
Trump's character flaws, faux status as a successful business mogul, a conservative, a champion of the Republican party, a racist, ... is left to the reader. (A hilariously easy task with some time and Google.)
What I wanted to address was the single issue of China garnering votes for Trump's second term. JFK is famously quoted for this: "...Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country,..."[1] America didn't become the world's top economy by being anti-globalist. We manufactered things, we exported things, we embraced international trade. We pioneered the transistor, created silicon valley, and created an environment where enterprising foreign nationals could come with their ambitions and build companies that ultimately would employ Americans, enrich stock holders, and create jobs. But ... now Trump and his administration is slowly closing the US off from immigration of persons and businesses and ideas. How many of the worlds future Fortune 100 companies are in the minds of PHd students or researchers that given this new visa situation will think twice about incorporating in the USA? Just look at the businesses created in the first and second tech booms and ask how many founders were foreigners.
Regarding the foreign reserve currency and Chinese military might. I guess I am more bullish on that not changing anytime soon. The US spends far too much in propping up the military industrial complex that it would take generations of incompetent presidents to ruin that lead. That being said it's very disconerting for Trump to be so cozy with our enemies, to openly praise North Korea (could be a policy of appeasement or just keeping one's enemies closer than his freinds... i dunno) and to give exuberant praise to Putin, etc., and to disregard intel from his own agencies, to badmouth the FBI and the CIA, to bilk the government into paying himself by staying at his own properties, golfing practically his whole presidency, praising white supremacists, ... all of this is forgiven because he's "hard on China". HAH!
To think that President Xi isn't 10 moves ahead is to be truly ignorant.
>Most job losses ever? Or highest deficits ever? Or highest unemployment rate ever?
>Does that win anyone over?
How can you blame Trump for that when the unemployment rate was the lowest in over a decade before 2020, and the job losses / fall in unemployment was due to lockdowns he didn't support? Overall the unemployment rate is much better in Red states, which have weaker or no lockdowns: https://www.aier.org/article/unemployment-far-worse-in-lockd...
Getting the blame is part of being the country’s chief executive. There are two main categories here, economy and health. We are performing worse than Europe on both accounts (higher death toll and higher unemployment rate). Does that tell you we are doing something wrong as a country?
I think it's a bit unfair to blame him for the unemployment rate having gotten so high, but it is fair to blame him for how long it has lasted. If he'd shown the tiniest bit of competent leadership through the pandemic, we could have locked down for 2 months, suffered the high unemployment, and then largely gotten back to normalcy(+masks) by now. Most jobs could have come back, especially if we had done something like furloughs like the UK did. Instead, it got completely out of control entirely due to his incompetence.
Unemployment being higher in locked down states makes sense. But the flipside of that statistic is that daily deaths in red states are reaching new peaks now while they've flatlined to lows in blue states.
>If he'd shown the tiniest bit of competent leadership through the pandemic, we could have locked down for 2 months, suffered the high unemployment, and then largely gotten back to normalcy(+masks) by now.
Then why haven't the Blue states that have been locked down for months gotten back to normalcy? Like California and New York? Why hasn't Melbourne gotten back to normalcy? Almost nowhere that prevented a first wave by shutting down has managed to avoid a second wave.
A single percentage point difference in unemployment data versus versus thousands of deaths. And comparing dense European countries to rural red states. Your data is devastating to your point.
Blue states can't go back to normalcy since diseased red staters can still travel freely within the country and ruin it all over again. Also because Americans are too stubborn to mask up for the privilege of normalcy.
Places like Australia have gone back to normalcy(+masks) now. Japan can pack a train full of people(+masks).
Yeah, I’m afraid so. I wish liberal politicians were willing to stand up to China, and I try to encourage them to do so. But at the moment I’m unfortunately stuck supporting people like Trump.
At the end of the day it boils down to how much damage is Trump and other conservatives able to inflict compared to the CCP. I’m pro immigration, privacy, eu, choice, police-reforms, etc. my views are very much aligned with what you see in Scandinavia.. but at the end of the day, I see CCP as the greatest threat that the world is facing, and I feel voting against all my beliefs to help stop them is a necessary sacrifice.
Technically, having started no new wars, makes him one of the best presidents in history (as a non-American, that's the most important dimension of any US presidency.)
(Caveat: I think US entering WWII was justified so I don't blame FDR, and also given that Bush & Obama attacked so many countries, it's hard to find another country to invade, so arguably Trump had an easier job... but still. Good job!)
I'm a lowercase independent—for the life of me, why did the Democrat party choose the worst candidate of the lot two campaigns in a row?
Biden has tons of baggage. If he had an (R) next to his name and nothing else in life different he’d be getting creamed for all his previous policies, stances and quotes. In addition, mentally he’s not lasting four years of intense presidential demands.
In 2016 Clinton was Bush heavy (or comparatively Bush would be Clinton lite)
There’s something terrible about the primary system and it’s not obvious how to fix it. It is ostensibly more representative than the system which came before it, but honestly it seems in the past 20 years to have delivered extraordinarily low quality candidates for both parties more often than not. It’s not clear what the solution is though.
Counterintuitively primaries are more democratic now compared to before when backroom dealing often had more sway.
Maybe what's happening now is that early on in primaries enthusiastic voters vote for fresh kids, then as things progress more seasoned voters vote for more established candidates but by then most good established candidates have dropped off and we’re left with the second bests and hangers on.
Kind of a paradox of choice in the political arena.
>>>So China’s so big of an existential threat that you’ll let one of the worst presidents in history have another 4 years to continue screwing the country?
How screwed do you think the entire country will be if the Chinese continue their naval expansion unchecked[1][2], defeat us in a conflict, and de-throne the USD as the primary unit of exchange for energy resources?[3] What do you think happens to the US economy if we can't print the world's reserve currency like Monopoly money anymore?[4] Those are all far bigger, long-term strategic problems than the executive overreach we might experience with a President who's a rude narcissistic strongman....and almost no-one else who has campaigned for President or VP has even paid The CCP Problem lip-service (Biden started barking as if he was anti-China only in mimicry of Trump, arguably).
Why have you decided to boycott Chinese products? There's a billion people there, and most of them have nothing to do with the government. They just want to sell toys or computers or whatever it is, in order to be able to eat.
I don't boycott Apple just because the country they are based in (according to the note in the box) has committed some crimes over the years.
And in the US people at least ostensibly have the right to choose their own government, AND there's a culture for large corporations to lobby government directly.
You'll find the same people who want to boycott Chinese products are ironically also quite good at keeping us aware that people in China can't really speak their own minds.
Also, at what level should the boycott happen? Should I just boycott Californian luxury electronics manufacturers? All Californian firms? All US? The world is a tangled web, why is the political map the one whose lines you use?
The nazi Germany had millions of citizens too, just like you and me. People who wanted to live a happy and fulfilling life.
We're not talking about bombing them. We're talking about economic boycott and economic sanctions.
What else do you have in mind? How do we act against countries that commit crimes against humanity? Do we just stand and watch because they have millions of good citizens?
Economic sanctions should be directed at leaders. I don't see much use in random people boycotting random things from China, having much effect on the leaders.
I guess it may have effect if you tell your favorite seller on Aliexpress, that sorry, I will not be buying anymore stuff from you, because XYZ. But just stopping, means nothing. Sends no discernible signal to the other side, and just increases economic suffering, which while it can lead to revolutions, only probably when it hits some extreme level. Just look at Syria, massive sanctions, people can barely eat, currency is spiraling to hyperinflation, and they still have not toppled the corrupt asshole in charge. And I doubt having to spend half a day just figuring out how to get something to eat helps in any way. In fact corrupt asshole in charge is using the sanctions, to rally his supporters.
Sanctions against leaders don't work if they don't have their assets in the west. Chinese officials wouldn't give a fuck about it.
And besides that, we're in an economic against them. Actually, they are in an economic war against us. We can't do business in their country freely but they can make their own companies here or buy the ones we already have with the money they are making from manufacturing our stuff. Nope.
Clearly government is involved. When did a government of somewhere last express their displeasure at China's government for this? If they've done it, they must have buried the news. If you don't think a public rebuke will help anything, what do you propose?
If you don't think that it will help, don't do the wrong thing for the right reason. That will only clear your own conscience.
Let's not do things that harm the wrong people. Is not buying a toy from China really going to help anything? You'll put some toy guy out of business, but is he gonna lobby government to stop the prison camps?
Are you quite aware of how much blood is spilled when China goes through political turmoil? Aside from the world wars, a huge chunk of the top 10 bloodiest conflicts in history are Chinese internal conflicts.
You're asking people who understand very well that standing up for a new government is going to be extremely costly.
In the meantime, you want to deprive them of work.
Do you have a source for the ten bloodiest conflicts? Not saying you’re wrong just curious. Tiananmen Square and maybe some cultural revolution moments come to mind. But I also haven’t studied much Chinese history, which is why I’m curious.
Why won't 350 million American citizens do something about their own government first, before engaging in moral grandstanding in respect to other countries? No, this doesn't mean just getting rid of Trump - the entire political spectrum is complicit in millions of deaths every decade.
US calls itself a "Democracy", so you're supposed to be more empowered to make a change than an average Chinese citizen.
You're asking a very tricky "what if" question and implying a better result without evidence.
There are only 3 countries with the potential to become superpowers in the modern age -- USA, Russia, and China. Hegemony by one of the three is inevitable.
It is up to YOU to provide proof that Russia or China would be better choices.
President Roosevelt said "speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." The US foreign policy has gone very far with that idea. A large military then economic pressure is what led to the collapse of the USSR. The same tactic has kept North Korea, Iran, and other despotic countries at bay for decades.
Today, Trump and Biden both have endorsed a similar approach to China. Build up the military presence around China and pile on economic pressure until they collapse (trying to walk the fine line to avoid war).
Unlike the US, China and Russia/USSR have killed tens to hundreds of millions of their own people. Do you really think there would be fewer deaths if China or Russia were the dominant power? If they're willing to kill their own so casually, they're going to be even more barbaric with foreigners.
I'd ask again, do you have any proof that the alternatives are better?
I don’t know if that’s fair to Lebron. The man does a ton of good off the court that I think he’s a good enough guy to not value money as much as you paint him for it. I mean why would he be so willing to give of his own wealth if he was so driven by money? What is more likely is that the NBA pressured its biggest star because they have ambitions in China bigger than Lebron.
People like Lebron James, who thinks of himself like a freedom fighter, when he criticized China he ended up saying he was misinformed and he wasn't educated about the issue.
He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to be reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some nazi collaborators did.