Not sure how you can equate these two. Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence.
> Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization.
No, it was driven by politically motivated lies that the governments knew were fabrications. It wasn't intelligence driving policy, but preconceived policy driving intelligence to support the arguments that were already decided. And this was fairly evident and evidence for it fairly widely reported, though also widely of ignored, during the drive to war.
The Uighurs camps situation doesn't appear the same, but of course it's abstractly possible that the lies are just better covered and laundered through external organizations. But I don't think that's the Occam's Razor answer.
> Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence.
The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.
You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!
There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water.
The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now.
Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.
Ok, theres some progress to accept that. Sure not everything is accurate when things get reported and I don’t doubt sometimes mistakes are made. Successive takes usually filter out the chaff. If China allowed reporters and had nothing to hide we wouldn’t be discussing right now. This report may be questionable from your point of view but it’s all we’ve got for now..
And this report doesn’t look like the WMD in Iraq provided by CIA based on the secret intelligence shtick. This is an open investigation and is still ongoing. As far as I can tell it is credible but we both have the right to our opinions
You missed my point. I am not questioning the images.
> If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.
China wouldn’t allow that kind of evidence: direct footage of people being psychologically and even physically tortured, proof of organ harvesting, etc. That’s like evidence that is very hard to obtain having how tight a grip China has, but there are leaks from time to time. Once again if China had nothing to hide and reporting was allowed we wouldn’t be having this conversation
Also, a concentration camp is not defined in terms of families/women/children confined in it, there were many concentration camps in history that captured individual members of families, who were not ideologically aligned with a totalitarian regime of that time and place, the whole soviet Gulag system was built on secrecy and minimal exposure to public, when individual members of your family might not get back home from a grocery store one day and just dissappear into unknown destination.
I don't agree with you. That kind of camps should be called prisons or something else.
Now when people talk about concentration camps, they mostly refer to the camps of Nazi's or the US's for Japanese Americans during WWII.
I mean that is the most insidious side of the concentration camp accusation against China.
Reliable source means established entities like media or research institution that verify what they get. I would name New Yorker as an example, which manages to maintain very high standard of professionalism.
> I don't agree with you. That kind of camps should be called prisons or something else.
It takes more than just disagreeing to prove your point, and no - those camps shouldn't be called prisons, because prisons existed as separate entities at that time and the abbreviation "gulag" contans a word "camp" in its definition.
Next, where's your verifiable proof that New Yorker is a reliable source of information?
Well, concentration camps are what they are, places where people are brought en mass and kept there forcefully. What exactly they look like and how they compare to the Nazi camps or the soviet gulag is not relevant, plus we are more than half a century later and in a different part of the world so comparing the details isn’t relevant at this point. Ive just seen some sad footage from China with an Uygur woman who was released after 2 years and her 3-4 years old daughter who she was separated from - was holding her arms around her telling her not to cry. The woman was saying they were rushed by guards and zapped with electricity in their heads to make them move faster. Tell me what kind of danger did that poor woman pose to China and why did she have to be taken away from her daughter? Are you heartless or what? I guess you are but I don’t wish that upon you or your family, just for you to try to put yourself in her shoes. You’re on the good side of the chinese history just because you weren’t born an uygur but that’s just chance. Please do try to show some compassion for your fellow human beings.
Ive also saw some footage of non-Uygur, regular Chinese, albeit poor who were agressively being beaten by police. You Chinese are coward for letting them beat you like that. Maybe you’re well connected and untouchable is all I can think, otherwise you seem somewhat informed, you have access to the outside world and can see for yourself what is going in in your own country. Be human!
Ok now it gets personal and emotional. My last reply.
I think you got lost in feeling angry for some footage that shows injustice but forgot we were debating evidence for concentration camps.
Injustice happens everyday and everywhere. Chinese people feel the same and we have our channels and ways to address those issues, otherwise there wouldn't be a functional society, which is a fact no matter what you say about China.
And you are wrong to think Chinese people just eat up what injustice that are imposed onto them. Chinese people protest always and rebel always in the past and now. You need to teach yourself more of China's history and Chinese people before rushing emotional comments.
I guess you are heartless and as I said, well connected so that kind of injustice doesn't affect you. You are an oppressor and no matter what kind of evidence you'd find you'd still find some justification for what you do to the oppressed. You completely disregarded a poor woman's plight and called me emotional. If it leaves you cold-hearted make sure you're also not a psychopath as well.
I don't have 100% certainty but I highly suspect you're paid by the CCP to mitigate any damage to their image. If that's true then it's also very pathetic.
