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> There isn’t much that is “excellent beyond what is available” in China anymore.

Democracy and freedom of thought.

Despite your experience of Foreign Chinese Students being confused rather than liberated by the West...in my experience I’ve never met a Foreign Chinese Student that didn’t want to permanently relocate to Canada or the US.




For those in an (economic) position to emigrate, China lacks nothing in a material sense. Cars, electronics, clothes - they're not only available, they're well within the purchasing power of these people. In fact, what I dislike most about modern China is the endless gleaming shopping malls full of the same (mostly Western) brands.

But not everything is material, and creativity and freedom of expression definitely have an impact. I have a reasonably large circle of Chinese acquaintances via my wife, and anecdotally, I've never met a single emigrant who actually returned.

A lot of them definitely complain regularly about how much better China is, but none of them actually pack up and head back. I think that's telling.


Not sure how much of that is political rights, and how much of it is just less competitive pressure abroad because of lower population. Easier to get into colleges and find jobs. Might want to ask and confirm.


> less competitive pressure abroad

Or in other words, better quality of life? Yes, you can drive a new beemer, have a house with a pool and and 3 holidays abroad every year in China too -- if you are the one in a hundred to win the job lottery and work 60 hours a week not to get sacked (or if your daddy is a CCP aristocrat).

In the US/Western Europe/Japan at least half the people can affort that upper-middle class living standard, while only working 40 hours.

It's less competitive pressure because everyone can achieve it.


Never thought I would type these words but if you think half the people in any place can manage an upper middle class lifestyle, you need to check both your statistics and your privilege.


If you drop the 3 vacations abroad and the 'new' appellation to the car, then 1/2 of the people in the US can reasonably aspire to the rest of that with hard work and self discipline.


No idea why you think workers in Japan, as the general rule, are working 40 hour weeks when it's famously much more than that. For example[1]:

> Nearly one quarter of Japanese companies require employees to work more than 80 hours of overtime a month, according to a 2016 government survey. Those extra hours are often unpaid.

The article also mentions the lack of holiday or workers taking holiday, which the government tried to force happen via legislation[2]:

> Japanese workers are so reluctant to leave their offices that they took less than half their holiday entitlement in 2013. The government now wants to raise that total to 70 per cent by 2020, according to the Yomiuri newspaper.

> At present, employees are entitled to a minimum of 10 days paid leave annually, with the figure increasing one day for every year that they work to a maximum of 20 days a year.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longes...

[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/113338...


A bit Survivor bias? Recent six years about half of my friends went back. I’m biased as well since many of them got green card and/or coming from Tier-1 city


As I admitted, it's purely anecdotal - I'm not denying that there are a lot of Chinese who do in fact return.

But net migration is still negative, meaning there's more people leaving China than returning.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/net-migratio....

I'm not sure how that figure is calculated, but I also wonder if it under-represents "pseudo-migrants" who claim to be living/holidaying temporarily in (say) Australia, but who seem to stay indefinitely.


China literally has a billion more humans than the US.

Is it really "freedom of expression" they want or just the lack of competition and the increase in living space?


Anecdotally, when I came back to my 1+ million people city in Europe from a vacation in China I immediately noticed the silence, the few people around, the short lines and the open sky. Of course my city is renowned /s in the rest of the country for the noise, the crowd, the long lines and the tall buildings covering the sky.


Also very possible.


In fact, what I dislike most about modern China is the endless gleaming shopping malls full of the same (mostly Western) brands.

Isn't that the point the OP is making though? That China is full of western brands that seem to outcompete local brands, yet PRC propaganda keeps claiming the rest of the world is using the wrong economic model.


The comment I responded to was asking “what can Chinese people get in the West that they can’t get in China”.

My point is that whatever it is, it’s not material goods. It’s something more ephemeral. Whether that’s democracy, creativity, or simply a slower pace of life due to not competing with 1 billion other people - who knows.


They want to relocate not for the freedom and democracy, but for the advantages they can take out of it. If you actually get into the Chinese community, you can hear many of them happily bloat about how well they do in a free society, while criticising thngs being “too free” when the freedom causes them trouble. Freedom is good, as long as I get all the benefits and none of the responsibilities, is basically the mentality.

Source: I am Taiwanese. We get way too many of these people.


> Democracy and freedom of thought.

Some people don't miss that at all,as their personal views are so neatly aligned with the ruling regime that a) their thoughts are not constrained, thus free, and b) having any other form of government would represent a suboptimal solution dictated by a ignorant majority.

This has been observed in pretty much any totalitarian regime since ever in a fraction of the population that in some cases might be the majority.




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