Recently saw an old video on youtube about that. Top Gun was created in response to heavy losses in Vietnam. It was very small and they had trouble even finding space for classes. A turning point came when a Mig was captured and they trained with it to find weaknesses. After that everything changed. The kill ratio inverted and they did start to run when engaged in some cases. Your uncle was lucky to go after the strategy was worked out, or he probably wouldn't have come back!
The FW-190 was cutting Allied aircraft to pieces in WW2, until the Allies captured one intact, learned its weaknesses, and turned the tables.
To get extra range, the P-51s had a large fuel tank installed just behind the pilot (where the passenger seat goes if you've ever gotten a ride). Unfortunately, full of fuel caused a large imbalance in the airplane, making it nearly unmaneuverable. Naturally, the pilots would burn that tank off first.
The Germans never realized this - if they did, an attack on the P-51 squadrons soon after they took off would have caught them helpless.
> Bomber escort defenses were initially layered, using the shorter-range P-38s and P-47s to escort the bombers during the initial stages of the raid before handing over to the P-51s when they were forced to turn for home.
So it sounds like even if the Germans knew it wouldn't have mattered much, and even then these planes were taking off from Britain for the most part.
Even then, a lot more than just this piece of intelligence would need to happen for the Luftwaffe to engage airplanes shortly after takeoff across the English channel.
The Luftwaffe even in 1944 was known to sneak through Allied defenses and shoot down B-17s. My father served as a B-17 navigator in 1944 and heard a Luftwaffe fighter shoot two bursts and bring down 2 B-17s in the landing pattern. The B-17s were caught by surprise cleaning their guns and never fired a shot back.
The Luftwaffe could have taken out a squadron of P-51s with just a handful of fighters. This would have required the AAC to then launch a bunch of fighters to protect the long range fighters until the tank was burned off, significantly hampering their power.
The P-51 was basically unable to turn with the center of gravity so far back.
Tail heavy aircraft turn faster than nose-heavy aircraft.
With the centre of aerodynamic pressure in front of the centre of mass the wings contribute extra turning force whenever the aircraft isn't facing exactly into the airstream.
If the centre of mass is too far behind the centre of pressure the aircraft becomes unstable - continuously trying to snap around and fly backwards.
I think we're on the same page. When I wrote "unable to turn" I meant "unable to turn in a stable manner". It would exhibit what in a car we'd call "oversteer". The pilot would have to be very gentle and careful in turns, which means death in air combat.
He was a B-17 navigator during WW2 for 32 missions. After the war, he left the military and went to college. After that he rejoined to become a fighter pilot (what he wanted originally anyway). He flew P-51s, and later transitioned to jet fighters. Flew combat in the Korean War, mostly ground attack missions.
I would have joined the Air Force too, but with my thick glasses the AF told me no way I would be a pilot. So I wound up as a compiler nerd instead :-)
That's amazing. My grandfather flew for Pan Am during the war, and his flight career spanned biplanes to the 707. I'm in awe of that generation. Your dad sounds like he had a similar adventure!
Yup, he learned to fly in stringbag biplanes. An era that will never come again. My father had a long and very full life. Sounds like your grandfather did, too!
Have Doughnut and Have Drill were the govt programs (which have been declassified) where we used acquired MiGs to learn their weaknesses. There are some great videos on YouTube and books from people who were directly involved in the Red Eagles.
Any history on the use of the word “Have” in project names like this? I’m thinking of “Have Blue” also but didn’t realize it seems to be a theme. It’s always sounded weird as hell to me.
It appears that "Have" was used by assignment of the Joint Staff to a specific organization. Still random of course, but interesting that its provenance and scope of application is not quite so super secret, at least not anymore.
Top Gun was created in response to heavy losses in Vietnam
That in itself is a crucial piece of historical context. The MiGs of the day were better than contemporary American fighters such as the F-86. They operated at altitudes the Americans couldn’t reach and shot downwards. One reason America was in Vietnam in the first place was a genuine fear that the Soviet system was actually better! It was the Sidewinder missile that really turned things around.
US strategy in the 50s when this stuff was designed or ordered was oriented around our friend the atom... nuke everyone. At one point there was serious discussion about the need for a Navy.
Vietnam was a crucible where a lot of entrenched thinking had to be burned away, unfortunately those lessons were taught in the context of that awful conflict.
The F86 was on a rough par with the MIG15 in Korea. Yeager's assessment was that it was all about pilots, not the planes.
Trivia: the Soviets eventually recovered an intact downed Sabre and shipped it to Russia for evaluation. They copied from it, including the Sabre's gun-sight that later fitted out the MIGs in Vietnam.
In Vietnam, the F100 (successor to F86) was in use, and it was actually obsolete at the time in comparison to the Migs.
The F100 was the first jet that could fly supersonic in level flight. It was known as the widowmaker, as it was basically a subsonic aircraft that could go supersonic, with pre-supersonic cockpit and controls. The workload on the pilots was intense, and many pilots died in flight school.
Since it was basically obsolete, it was used as ground attack aircraft, with fighter support provided by F105s.
No. The National Guard had them through the 1960s but jet fighter technology was moving so fast at the time that they were not in front line service by the time the US had any involvement in Vietnam.
