Reddit has been a/b testing behavior like this for months. Multiple different popups with variations on "view this in the app"; in some cases the popup is on every single page load, sometimes only once. They started blurring images on select subreddits with a message that you could only view the sub in their app.
Okay, I know they're chasing one of two things here: a higher level of revenue from the advertising they can embed in the app, or some app-download metric that can be converted somehow somewhere to more money.
But for users like me, they have a couple of significant problems. First, that if I were at all motivated to use their stupid app in the first place, I would've already done, which means that these attempts to force the issue mean they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, and ohwow that looks bad.
And two, I don't trust them. There is absolutely no way I am ever going to give them that level of access to my device just so I can browse their website. And every step of their behavior here only reinforces my decision. They aren't tempting me into using their app with irresistible new features that really can't be provided by a regular ol' mobile website. Instead, they're showing me just what kind of behavior I should expect from their app by playing these dirty little games.
On the plus side, all this has caused my Reddit time to fall off a cliff and I'm cruising through books at double last year's rate now.
I worked for a company that did something similar (and is mentioned elsewhere in these threads). We a/b tested it, and just from the metrics, getting someone to download the app was so valuable from a stickiness perspective that it _looked_ like it was worth the negative effects.
You're right though, from a user trust perspective it's pretty horrendous. Regardless of whether that was measurable or not, there are things that are just so infuriating to users that you shouldn't do them. I'd argue the cost in terms of internal morale and employees' trust that we're doing the right thing for our users, and their sense of pride in their work, way more than offset any metrics gains.
I'm still quite a fairly active user on reddit going on a decade now. If they started implementing this on a wide scale then I'd like to think I'd stop using it completely. I've gone on a few hiatus during some of the controversies regarding the degradation of the communities and values that they original founders represented, think like 2014 during that debacle with the office move, or the "good cop, bad cop" that was taking place with Pao and her restrictions on what some communities viewed as free speech. As more corporate interests and perhaps even governments take notice of reddit's community impact, I'm sure that more restrictions will be implemented and content watered down until it's hardly any different than facebook. At that point I will hopefully have found and fully moved on to a better place.
I suspect "stickiness" is an important part of the equation for Reddit as well. With an app they can send notifications, and thereby program the habits of their users.
I am mostly dropping reddit as well. 90% of the time spent there was in the public transport. It was basically 5 min of reddit, 5 min reading news, 5 min of email checking etc. Dropping reddit from my mix is trivial.
With the app you are basically deanonimized (e.g. if you use the Facebook app on that phone they can link your accounts), so they can either sell more targeted and valuable ads, or straight up sell your data.
Adding to that, I can't run ad blocker as easily on the App.
Btw, I use RedReader or Slide for browsing reddit on mobile. Especially RedReader is fast, and looks simple in AMOLED black theme. Both are open source, though they both miss few features.
> Okay, I know they're chasing one of two things here: a higher level of revenue from the advertising they can embed in the app, or some app-download metric that can be converted somehow somewhere to more money.
I don't trust them on this remotely either, but given the official app is hot garbage then that would mean a signifcant net reduction of time on the service from me, just like it did on Twitter.
But you still need to install an app. Some people do not want to install apps to their mobile devices. And they do not want to register to get read only access. They just want to browse the content.
Its an interesting design problem ie UX. If I force log-ins or abusive pop-ups I end up making the problem worse.
What Reddit needs is a very creative UX solution. Something of value that gets presented in the app but is not inthe mobile-web version delivered via browser.
Some app interaction rather than some extra content. Something interactive that is exclusive to the mobile app. Not something big interaction wise but just enough value that people start using the mobile app over mobile web via browser.
thanks for user that posted the question as I have a UX interview with a Chicago startup that is somewhat facing this problem and several other UX problems around driving their mobile app use upwards. The question help me formulate how to solve it.
It’s abusive to tell people they need an app to get access to something when there’s no technical reason for the requirement. Everyone knows the real reason is better ad targeting / data resale but that’s not something a user should care about – users aren’t your shareholders and there are plenty of formerly big companies which spent too much time on things which didn’t benefit their users.
If you’re thinking UX, the question should be how the user benefits. There are some potential answers like better performance, offline support, etc. which generally come back to how badly their current SPA developers failed at networking and error handling but that’s probably just restating that they should take the web UI seriously rather than ignoring it in the hopes that people will install the app.
Oh but dude! They need the analytics to tell them how you're using the app. So they can see how you're touching the screen. What things you pause on. What notifications you might be getting meanwhile. What other apps are on your phone. Ya know. To get to know ya better. ;)
This is about repeatedly ignoring clear user preferences because one of the options gives more access to the user’s data for marketing. I’d have nothing against them offering the app, doing the standard banner, etc. – what makes it abusive is pretending there’s a choice when one of the options starts a cycle of nagging and “accidentally” breaking the experience until you switch.
What a strange thing to be this user hostile. When stuff like this happens, people look for alternatives, and even if they don’t switch immediately, this really erodes any loyalty they have to your brand/service.
I think Facebook is experiencing a similar thing. A frustrating amount of my network has quit, which makes planning events more difficult (and is frustrating). The difference for Facebook is that they have enough money to just buy wherever people move to. Reddit doesn’t have that.
At this point I think a lot of people are actively looking for (and probably finding) replacements. I’m actually surprised Reddit still makes their public api so easily available without any keys. I wonder how long until somebody just scrapes the content and uses that to help get over the network problem and start a competitor.
I meant this both literally and metaphorically. No one is the same person after 15 years, but sometimes the same principles remain. Maybe theirs haven't.
Further, I don't know how big the original team was, but I doubt the majority of the founders are still there. It is, largely, approximately, under different management.
Look at digg.com today... I can't say their shenanigans have played out all that well for them. Perhaps Reddit engineers should use this as a cautionary tale during UX design meetings.
The oldest and most stable online communities seem to have the slowest-changing interfaces.
I left Reddit years ago due to the “community” getting weird, I feel some schadenfreude every time I see people complain about the site.
I think it will be an interesting case. Reddit seems more entrenched than Digg and the internet is different now. They obviously have metrics affirming their choices, so we’re probably in the minority with this mindset.
All kinds of shitty companies regularly force us to accept bullshit like this and Im afraid this is now status quo. It seems younger people generally accept it because the need for content is stronger than that of due diligence, a naive mistake en masse.
>I left Reddit years ago due to the “community” getting weird,
Yeah, one thing is that Reddit the company is getting shady, but the community has gotten rather toxic the last few years. I closed my account two years ago, roughly, because the community started be rather exclusive. If you're not an overly political correct leftish American city dweller you're opinions aren't welcome. There are Reddit approved opinions, any deviation from these opinions will result in you having a bad time.
I'm honestly surprised that the NSFW subreddit haven't been killed off yet, but I suppose Reddit see a business opportunity in all the cam-girls hanging around.
This is what always happens with SNSs, isn't it? The company starts small, and user-centric. People likes the website, a community starts to grow. And then, the company starts to find ways to be profitable. But at this point, most people won't leave, they will stay for the community.
Think about Facebook, Twitter, Quora and now Reddit.
I am not saying the company is doing anything _bad_ per se. A company has to be profitable, otherwise it would die. So, it seems to me that for a SNS to stay "good", it cannot be backed by a for profit company.
I don't know how that would work. Maybe things like WT.Social and Mastodon are the answer.
Facebook gave up on its original userbase long ago when it found out there was a near endless supply of older boomers that can barely use a computer and would would click on everything and anything.
Facebook is designed for, and in fact is designed to prey on, the computer illiterate.
Particularly ads. I don't think it's necessarily computer illiteracy specifically to blame here, though it's certainly a factor. The elderly are also targeted by telephone scammers, presumably because they tend to be more trusting/naive. Even snail-mail becomes an issue for some old folks; my grandmother has trouble differentiating junk mail from legitimate mail, it can sometimes take her several minutes to realize she can throw away a junkmail flier.
I have the deepest contempt for the people who work in these sort of industries. They must know what they're doing.
My parents fall prey to a new Facebook scam every couple weeks. I can’t even keep up with it anymore.
Scam isn’t even the right word. More like “scheme”. Everything from anti-aging pills to travel clubs to worse. Between this garbage and the fake news nonsense Facebook is an absolute disease at this point.
Honestly, someone should start a campaign to ask Mark Zuckerberg to just delete it. Cash out and delete it for the good of humanity.
Mark Zuckerberg cannot do this. He could sell his shares and leave Facebook, but it would still work.
Your best bet about shutting down Facebook is government action or useds leaving Facebook. Either of those seems almost impossible however, and keep in mind Facebook has money to purchase its competitors if useds start moving to them.
We just need regulation. If Facebook advertising is used to promote a scam then Facebook should be considered complicit for the crime and punished.
The market will do the rest. Facebook doesn’t want to be fined so will force all ads to be reviewed & approved manually. This costs money so in turn the price of the ads will go up. Legitimate brands will still be able to afford it, the rest will disappear. Overall there would be less “noise” in the ads compared to the “signal” (the very few good ads).
They can be as horrible to their users as they want. As long as they have cat pictures on the front page, nobody cares enough to change anything.
I think we're all getting exactly what is deserved by collectively allowing a monopoly to form. (I'm not suggesting there should be legal action. I'm saying, by the laws of exponential curves and popularity, monopolies naturally form, and this is the result.)
Reddit is the flavor of the month. It's been a long month, but before Reddit there was digg, kuro5hin, plastic, something awful, slashdot.
Myspace was the flavor of the month. Now it is facebook/imgur/snapchat. But before it was friendster, AIM, MSN, ICQ etc. Maybe next it will be Discord or Son Of Discord.
The wheel continues to turn. I have zero faith Reddit will command the market share it does today, in 2030.
Yeah and in 10 years both forums will still exist. Something Awful exists and is active, but it's not in the cultural driver's seat the way it was in 2004-2009. But then Reddit (some claim, Twitter) came along and ate their lunch and they've been in the back seat for many many years with slow to no user growth.
There's also tildes: https://tildes.net/ (I tried googling them and they're nowhere to be found. Ironically /r/tildes popped up before the actual site did.)
It just gives you ~everything that got posted to Reddit.
Which is very useful for research purposes. And it fixes another Reddit defect, wherein it won't display full comment history, unless you're logged in.
I was very interested in Tildes, especially because their commitment to privacy and staying independent of investors. However, Deimos + potentially other admins are far too liberal with their moderation for my taste.
Not every network has to be a bastion of free speech, but being closed minded and erasing entire discussions that they don't like is a great way to build an echo chamber.
I wish a remember more of the context, but I had bookmarked this page[0] because it was an interesting discussion on this matter. As you can see, it's been nuked.
I was thinking about seeking an invitation, but that totally turns me off. I hate reading spam, trolling and insane gibberish. Unless it's amusing, or thought provoking, anyway. But I also hate moderation by deletion or editing, especially if it's ideological and extreme.
I like the HN approach, generally. Even people who have gotten themselves shadowbanned can still post, and interesting comments can be vouched. And there's redemption with consistent evidence of constructive posting.
Ideally, though, I like distributed systems, where content is persistent and irrevocable. But with multiple portals, each with its own standards, and portal-specific moderation. And additionally, giving users the tools to filter, based on posters, topics, keywords, time, etc.
Anyway, about the URL, archive.org has no snapshots, and just tells me that it's available. But perhaps someone has archived it, and will post a link.
It's really not a monopoly. Just the most popular service. Yes, it's currently better than the competition for some communities, but it really doesn't mean the competition doesn't exist or can't form.
If you s/reddit/facebook/, the same argument holds. But obviously Facebook is a monopoly.
Reddit is the Nth most popular site in the world. (I'm not exactly sure what N is, but it's pretty small.) Whatever the competition is, it hardly registers on the radar.
It is not a monopoly — while there is only one reddit the effect this has on me is, that I read literally anything else: small blogs, wikipedia, books, news, this site etc.
If they wouldn't use these practices I would probably spend a significant amount of time on their site. But as it is now, I feel reluctant to visit reddit unless I am searching for a solution to a specific problem.
I am not even sure if users like me who stay away even show up in any of the metrics they use to justify their current actions — how would they even messure it?
I don't agree, for one b/c Reddit is a links aggregator and opening links works best in a full browser instead of a shitty in-app web view, plus it's the little things like ability to copy/paste or go back to a previous page, that are sometimes emulated in native apps, but never work well.
But even if you think Reddit works better in a native app for you, that's by design. Reddit is making the web experience shitty on purpose, to drive users to their app.
"Reddit is a links aggregator" feels pretty inaccurate. Some subreddits, especially the big and lowest common denominator ones may be mostly link sharing, but most of the ones I'm on are communities sharing questions, opinions, jokes, images, and stories.
Yup. Playing a difficult Minecraft pack the first stop is r/feedthebeast to look at other people's advice. Later I'd return with questions most of which will be FAQs. Example, last week I made Project Ozone 3's fluid container that has an infinite amount of any liquid you put inside it. First question I had was, how do I empty this to put something else in? Because if the answer is "You can't" I need to pick very carefully what to use it for. The trouble with the correct answer "Shift left click a Gauge Dropper in the UI" is that I thought I'd tried that. So did lots of people, but Reddit has a comment thread patiently walking us through each step and yup, it works.
You can simply configure web pages to open directly in browser.
And a dedicated app is able to handle certain links better than native browsers, like RES on desktop. One example would be to directly open the image instead of Imgur page.
Also if we're talking about Android, I don't feel webview is too much different from a native browser now; all the histories, auto-fills are shared with my main browser (Chrome). Of course, it is just my PERSONAL use case.
That's because they deliberately make it terrible to convince you to install the app. They ruin the experience even more with all the nagging they do even if you have the option to be based about the app disabled. There is no reason their mobile site needs to be as terrible as it is.
Is there any app that can essentially open threads in a new tab like in a browser? This is the one thing keeping me in the mobile browser. Well, that and my girlfriends reddit app seems to fail to load GIFs a decent fraction of the time.
Yes, or more like, queue them up for reading later. That's how I use reddit: scroll through the front page or whatever subreddit, middle click everything of interest, then eventually get around to reading or closing said tabs.
The old design works well on a browser (now old.reddit). I make it a point to never use the new social network themed reddit, or it’s chat (god, why?) or the default app due to the popup when you access reddit on a mobile browser. Apollo is much better anyhow (iOS only though iirc).
On a desktop, auto redirecting to old.reddit.com, with all custom subreddit CSS disabled, chat turned off, RES enabled and uBlock Origin installed is the only usable way to browse Reddit.
For a website that I spend ungodly amounts of time in, I hate that it's this way.
I also use a third party app. AlienBlue is superb and more feature rich and user friendly than the official app. Let’s enjoy it while it lasts. I suspect one day the API will be monetised (forced to display ads inline in the feed) or paid for (pricing out third parties) or entirely removed.
Agree on both fronts. Reddit is way improved with an app, but the official app is trash. I prefer relay, but I know that there are many other quality apps out there that folks recommend. Feel free to comment with your favorite.
The problem is that you and I are in the minority on this.
Most people install the app, and all the tracking and data collection and geolocation that comes with it. Soon, almost all mass media will be consumed this way. This is just the latest installment of the mounting assault on the free and open web.
In another way you can always trust people to be stupid and greedy and poison the commons: Every day you'll see more and more stories about apps that get taken over by/sold to malicious actors that then infect your device with the latest virus/ads/ransomware.
People don't care if their private data is sold all over the world, that's clear by now, but people will care, cry and shout really loudly when they get infected by ransomware that holds their grandkids pictures hostage.
It will happen, and the vector will always be a rogue app. Welcome back to the web!
I share your belief, I think the web is in danger too. Even more than the terrible state of these walled garden social networks and terrible app permissions, is the threat of Google AMP. There has been an uncoordinated but pervasive attempt to capture networks of users, but for profit motives.
I also fear that with the increase in nationalism around the world, and cyber warfare becoming more serious, that even traditionally liberal governments will start exerting more control on their networks. Specifically, not just to protect strategic interests, but to restrict ideas. Particularly since foreign governments have begun to use social networks for propaganda purposes.
Is it? The protocols and the technologies are open and standardized. You're perfectly capable of registering a DNS name, hooking up a server to the network and starting a HTTP daemon. Big companies can't stop you from doing that.
"But nobody is doing that today! Too much hassle!", I hear you saying.
Ah! You have a point... but that's based on a bias. You're switching cause and effect. Why are billions able to post content on the Web? Because that's what big platforms allow them to do. There implementation simply has lowered the bar for a huge influx of non-technical people to start publishing content.
The trade-off these millions are making is giving up on their privacy, or having to endure the rules and weird quirks, towards those that own and operate the platforms that they are using.
Publishing content on the Web never was easy to begin with. Tim Berners-Lee originally invented HTTP because he simply wanted to connect researchers and share scientific knowledge. Most of the tools that power the Web were never designed for end users. They are designed for robustness, performance, security and so on.
The only merit of Zuckerberg and Jack is that they used to tools in such a way to abstract that complexity away for end users. Exactly like what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did by providing windowing systems with a visual language that was easy to understand for end users.
Yelling "the Web is in danger" would be like yelling "computers are in danger" because billions of users never learned to use command line tools, don't know what a kernel is, let alone understand what a file system is.
The free and open Web was and always will be an affair of people who have an understanding of open, standardized technologies such as HTML, CSS, HTTP, URL's, TCP/IP and so on. You can't have one without the other, really. Freedom and openness are a function of the distribution of knowledge to implement and enforce them.
Now, the real problem, at this point, isn't technological. It's regulatory. The real problem is that these platforms don't have a proper paid offering for users who want to share and publish content. Because end users, like you and me, aren't the customer, they are the product for advertisers. And so consumer and - at this point - civil rights don't seem to apply to them. That's what really matters here.
But that problem is only a problem caused because those very same platforms allowed millions to enter this virtual world. Equally, expecting that anyone - including your grandparents - learns HTML and how to set up an Apache webserver, well, that might equally a bridge too far, no?
If ISP's decided to stop supporting open standards and switched to proprietary protocols to link computers, that's when you need to ask questions. And this has been tried... and failed already in a different form some 30 to 40 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel
Is it just my perception or are aggressive “signup walls” and the like becoming more common? I feel like it was very frowned upon when Quora and Pinterest did it. But now Reddit, Instagram and even Dribbble are very aggressive about refusing to let you do nearly anything without an account.
This has some negative consequences for their logged in users too. For example, many small shops and restaurants seem to use Instagram instead of a traditional website. I wonder if they are aware that plenty of people can’t see their menus etc?
I find Dribbble’s wall especially ironic. For the longest time it would be hard to get a Dribbble account - you had to know someone with an invite. And now they refuse to even tell you who designed which image unless you create an account. (Isn’t that rather problematic from a copyright perspective?)
It’s a stage in the bubble process: these companies were funded well beyond their real revenue prospects and those unsustainable business models are also seeing ad rates which have been declining for many years. The investors expect returns which the market can’t deliver and that’s going to lead to more abuses until the users switch to a company earlier in the cycle.
Reddit has had something like $550M in funding, with the last round in December 2019. It’s been around for 15 years so it’s unlikely to become profitable at the desired levels but everyone involved has a strong incentive not to recognize that.
Browsers are agents of the user, apps are agents of the company behind the app.
With a browser the user can install extensions and do things that benefit them, in an app you get exactly what the app owner gives you. If monetization is your only purpose, you would choose apps exclusively if your users are willing to accept it.
A website cannot silently read a phone number and list of nearby WiFi access points for geolocation, scan local drive for interesting files, show annoying notifications every hour to return user back to the app.
> Which of those things can the official Reddit app do currently?
Looking at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.reddit.fro..., scroll down and click the 'View Details' under Permissions. It shows that the app can read your contacts, network connections, approximate location, contents of your USB storage plus much more which would cover all of codedokode's points adequately I think? (I'm not sure of the annoying notifications, perhaps all apps can do that..)
The list in full:
This app has access to:
Photos/Media/Files
read the contents of your USB storage
modify or delete the contents of your USB storage
Location
approximate location (network-based)
Storage
read the contents of your USB storage
modify or delete the contents of your USB storage
Microphone
record audio
Camera
take pictures and videos
Contacts
find accounts on the device
Device & app history
read sensitive log data
Identity
add or remove accounts
find accounts on the device
Other
receive data from Internet
view network connections
prevent device from sleeping
run at startup
read Google service configuration
draw over other apps
read sync settings
full network access
create accounts and set passwords
use accounts on the device
toggle sync on and off
install shortcuts
Many (though certainly not all) of those things require explicit permission from the user (particularly the storage, location, and camera related stuff).
I don't have the app installed but I'm assuming you can record video in it to post on Reddit? If that's the case I can see why it requires access to the microphone. That's the only way I could look at justifying it.
The only ones that require user interaction are contacts, location, storage, microphone, camera.
Microphone is granted along camera. Camera is needed if you want to upload photos.(I might be wrong about the microphone)
Storage is always necessary for apps that cache anything from the web.
That leaves contacts and location.
So you can disable contacts and location, but all your metadata including device and network information is read and probably transmitted. In most cases it's good enough as location information as well.
Even if the user has fine-grained control over these things, the app can just refuse to run until they're granted. I don't know if the reddit app does so, but many do.
This is why users need control over the internal API layer of their phones so they can feed spoofed data to apps.
> Even if the user has fine-grained control over these things, the app can just refuse to run until they're granted. I don't know if the reddit app does so, but many do.
Perhaps this is the case on Android, but this is explicitly forbidden by Apple:
> (iv) Access Apps must respect the user’s permission settings and not attempt to manipulate, trick, or force people to consent to unnecessary data access. For example, apps that include the ability to post photos to a social network must not also require microphone access before allowing the user to upload photos. Where possible, provide alternative solutions for users who don’t grant consent. For example, if a user declines to share Location, offer the ability to manually enter an address.
Maybe you should try iOS :-) it’s quite different here honestly. I’m not saying there aren’t holes they’ve had to patch [like recently adding a popup for Bluetooth LE permissions] but they are pretty good at closing them.
App permissions may be better than on Android, but browser choice just doesn't exist on iOS. So suggesting iOS to people who'd rather use the web page than the app seems a bit strange.
Brave is reskinned Chromium everywhere else, and reskinned Webkit on iOS.
People who use Brave use it for reasons other than access to a unique rendering engine. Many of those reasons apply to the iOS version as well.
Not making a case for Apple's decision here. I'd be happy if Gecko were available on iOS; there's no way I'd burn my battery like that, but competition is good.
But it's not as simple as "there's one browser on iOS" either, the rendering engine is just one part of what makes a browser unique and useful.
I don't see how the permissions requested here would be substantially different in IOS. This isn't a matter of the OS, both Android and IOS offer fine-grained controls that are accessible to the user. It's up to the application developer what they request and what they do with it.
I think people are right not to trust Tencent with this kind of access.
> both Android and IOS offer fine-grained controls that are accessible to the user.
iOS doesn't allow apps to read the user's phone number or scan local Wi-Fi access points. The only files sandboxed apps can read on iOS are ones created by the app, explicitly passed to the app, or made available by the user, which is also possible on the web.
The only thing mentioned that has the slightest bit of merit is being able to spam push notifications, and this is something that a) requires the user to grant permission, b) is easily disabled by the user if it's annoying, and c) explicitly forbidden by Apple:
> 4.5.3 Do not use Apple Services to spam, phish, or send unsolicited messages to customers, including Game Center, Push Notifications, etc. […]
> 4.5.4 Push Notifications must not be required for the app to function, and should not be used for advertising, promotions, or direct marketing purposes or to send sensitive personal or confidential information. Abuse of these services may result in revocation of your privileges.
Reddit was an alternative Digg for them to flee to. I’m not sure what an alternative reddit is. What’s more, the scale of Reddit today blows Digg, in its heyday, completely out of the water. So any transition would take much longer. There’s just too many niche subreddits where they people wouldn’t know where to go. It’s similar to how Facebook has a vice-grip on people because everyone seems to have one group or community that puts notices on the group page.
Basically I have some toy accounts for those sites, in names that read somewhat like Fortran variables, sans meaning.
Currently using this thing called 33mail. Temp-mail works most times too, but 33mail forwards me the emails so I can even use forgot password option. On a relevant note, there are few websites that provide temporary phone numbers if you're from US/Canada, or in contexts US/Canada temporary phone number helps.
If you were using it just to read answers, you can still do that with a tiny bit of effort and avoid logging in. Just put a ? at the end of the URL (it’s originally a parameter called “shared”, which would be added as ?shared=1). It will then assume you’re coming from a search engine link and let you in without the login popup.
It’s better to avoid companies like Quora entirely - they have highly SEO-ed but increasingly low quality content and just clicking on the link will tell Google to promote it to other people.
I stopped using it when they started search cloaking and have never had cause to reconsider.
I wish Google took a harder line against sites that make content available to their scraper that isn't available to the end user. It's one of the things that pushed me over to using DDG. (I'm not sure if DDG takes a more active approach, but I think less energy goes into gaming DDG's algorithm by the SEO-driven companies who do things like this.)
Just an fyi if you take the slug from any answered quora question and plug it into google you can view the page. They only require login if you are coming from another quora page. It's not convenient and they are certainly slimy but it does allow you to view any question without login.
Reddit was a great place to engage with ideas, and then move on from them, but turning it into just another surveillance operation is where communities go to die.
I still think I know how Reddit could make money, but it's possible they are too staid to get it. They may have also lost the plot politically, where a particular flavour of virtue is becoming a substitute for the growth and success they actually need to effect the change they want to.
The music business is and always was a celebrity and micro-celebrity factory, and Reddit (and their main magazine empire investor) could be that for content. Imagine a record label like Time Warner happened to own every indie bar in every little city where bands played, got first option on every group that came through the doors, and could measure audience reaction in real time.
That's what Reddit is, but for content.
This pressuring users to give up PII sounds like there is a sea change happening at the corporate/financial level where they've been given a limited runway and need to show some short term traction, "or else." I've mostly kicked my reddit habit, and their strategy really resembles something they'd do if they're hitting a negative inflection point.
Instagram only allows you to see a portion of a user's photos before forcing you to login. It does this on both mobile and browser.
I'm not a big application design junkey, but it's behavior like this that makes me appreciate the simplicity of hacker news. A few standard concepts implemented in their most basic form. No changes in the name of more user engagement.
I understand that Reddit and Instagram's primary motive is to make money, but these sorts of "features" remove me from their pool of potential customers.
I'd like to see a move towards a purely data based web where I get to choose how the data is displayed. I know a semantic web paired with a standard set of user interface components chosen by the user wouldn't be as profitable as the current internet, but I would prefer it.
I just tried, and I can only use my adblocker to block the element that requests I login. My scrolling is still stopped, and I can't see anymore of a user's photos. Am I missing something?
Instagram UX is horrible in my opinion. For anyone who knows to, say rename a file, Instagram UI / UX appear worst of class. You can't find many settings. Stories are horrible design made for few use cases, Captions appear like comments etc.. etc.. They didn't even have a functioning dark mode till Android provided one.
But it continues to be popular. Arguably young people are stupid. I mean most people of my age use Instagram and I will have to.
More and more I think the whole ad-driven approach to sites is just unsustainable, as eventually they're incentivised to have dark patterns like this in order to drive up revenue and engagement.
I'm working on my own alternatives, but all I really want is a premium reddit like community that focuses on UX and gives some of my subscription back to the creators.
Fair, but I think Netflix's approach is less nefarious than other platforms. At the end of the day Netflix wants you to do two things: value their platform and spread the word.
With things like instagram and facebook, it's different - their objective is to get you as addicted to the platform as possible, collect as much data as they can, and use it as a platform to surface ads.
They simply have more drivers that are at odds with what's beneficial to the user.
Just today I tried to open a post on /r/haskell in incognito mode (because there’s a markdown/commonmark mismatch on code sections between old and new reddit, and hey, I’m the dumb one insisting on the old version so I accept that I’m the one who has to work around this.)
And then I get hit with the his garbage???
Seriously, the assholes at reddit responsible for this shit should resign in shame and vow to never touch a computer for the next ten years.
Final straw for me when I read «This community is only available in the app". Such a anti-user thing to do so closed my account in protest. I primarily used reddit for programming and audio related news. Luckily I have ycombinator for my programming needs and gearslutz for my audio needs.
With ~400 employees [1] and ~$100m in ad revenue [2], that's only about $250,000 / employee (seems like a lot, but take out unemployment taxes, health care contribution, corporate taxes, etc.). And then there's infrastructure, which I'm sure is relatively high given ~500m users per month.
I'm sure there is MUCH more revenue to be extracted from an app (with access to so much on-device data)
I guess, if the information on their site is truly worthy, then I'd buck for the Reddit Gold (Premium) [3]. Does anyone know if that works on the web, or you need the app?
I don't see device data being worth anything unless you mean being able to serve ads based on that data, or at most being able to sell location data [again, for ad purposes].
Browsing Reddit is so much easier in a mobile browser - at least for me. Allows me to open multiple pages in new tabs and browse them when convenient. Also makes sharing articles or pages to other places easier.
I've tried the apps - but nothing beats the browser for me. If they kill the mobile website, I'll just stop using Reddit.
Have you tried Narwhale? The UX is pretty incredible for everyday use. Some of the cornercases (subbing, unsubbing) are less intuitive, but it’s my daily driver for mobile use of Reddit.
Yelp would be second place then. They won't allow you to see pictures in their mobile site. Any attempt to view images will take you to the app store.
OK sure, I'll download the app... But wait, now I can't use it without logging in... But I can't login because I use a long generated password... well crap, now finding that menu image I want is a huge chore. Why yelp, why.
It's ironic Reddit went through a major redesign that many of it's users complained about to make the site mobile friendly only to completely ruin the mobile UI/UX by constantly spamming users with prompts to install the app. Now the desktop users of the new site get all the annoyances of a mobile UI and mobile users can't use the site without an app. Brilliant!
The whole web feels like a hostile user experience these days.
Every site you visit you must...
- figure out how to disagree to ad tracking (Sometimes imposible if you want to use the site)
- decline cookies
- decline to receive their newsletter
- Decline to download their app
- decline to receive notifications.
Reddit has been trying many user hostile approaches and dark patterns to push its app. I’ve been terribly annoyed by this arm twisting, but I won’t use the app. I have reduced visiting reddit because of such annoyances.
On mobile, sometimes closing the tab and reopening works, sometimes changing networks works, and the most recent one I’ve seen is to request for the desktop site, which has worked consistently even though it makes reading a bit more difficult.
With iOS not allowing the user to set a default app, using a third party app like Apollo as an alternative to the browser isn’t convenient either. It’s either view/use the official reddit app or continue with the browser.
I wonder if browsing with the Apollo or another app (like Narwhal) also throws the same message and restricts reading on the platform.
It's really sad to watch Reddit being slowly destroyed like that, one user-hostile feature after the other. All of it for short term gains. For me the threshold to leave will be when old.reddit.com will not be available anymore. At that point it'll be pretty easy. I already spend a lot less time on the website than before.
In depressing times like these, I like to remember that something like 30% of users have adblockers installed. It might seem like people will mindlessly go along with this sort of manipulation, but there is still a place for independent thought on the web. Not on facebook, Reddit, Instagram, or really any other big-name site, but you can find it if you look.
This is why I started developing an alternative to Reddit a few years ago. It was clear from their leadership that they would continue to move towards satisfying their newly acquired VCs (for example Tencent), and do so by selling out their users in every way possible. Platforms like Reddit do not care about giving their users the best possible experience, and that is no longer the basis of the decisions they make.
The only way for a discussion platform to stay true to its users is if it does not rely on revenue from other sources.
A suggestion, though - if you really can't make the site work at least a little bit with javascript disabled, at least have a basic landing/about page display for js-less browsers. Simply put - give me a reason to consider unblocking your site, dangle the carrot in front of me.
"better for users" if you ignore all of the other aspects than speed and reliability. Users have far less control over third-party tracking in an app than they do in a web browser.
Reddit is all pseudonymous anyway and doesn't have much data in the first place (which is why they have low ad prices). It's mostly defending against adblocking which most people are fine with in exchange for a fast app that persists logins and has push notifications.
reddit should be careful what they wish for. One of the things you get by switching to the app is you get stuck with the phone app crowd which likes phone app things, photos , 1 line comments etc, you'll get a bad instagram for college boys with lots of nsfw.
OTOH , if reddit unravels we ll probably witness a lot of disparate forums springing up again, which may be good
I started seeing this a few days ago. What is even more exasperating is that the default Reddit doesn't support tabs and it is INSANELY slow. I can stream 4K content on YouTube comfortably but I have to wait multiple seconds to open a text thread. Maybe I should try the Boost client...
If you're after tabs, there is, of course, a workaround. I use firefox on desktop and mobile, with extensions to redirect to old.reddit.com and i.reddit.com respectively. Because logins are saved, everything just... works. Opening links in a new tab included.
At least until only Reddit's new design is allowed, and I stop using the site.
I can't edit it now but I was talking about the default Reddit app for Android, not the new mobile website. The website was pretty fast for me. But because of these new changes you can't even view a subreddit without using the app.
I just installed Boost for Reddit and it is pretty fast. But thanks for letting me know about i.reddit.com, I didn't even know that exists. The old Reddit is still the best on desktops, I hope they don't kill it.
I have a firefox extension to automatically redirect to old.reddit.com for the same reason. It's faster, more compact, easier to read, easier to navigate.
I believe that there will be a point in time when reddit APIs will no longer be open and third party apps will be completely dysfunctional or severely limited. The platform is going the way of twitter and facebook.
Shameless plug: I started building 20-things.com as a similar-feature community but with goal to never use dark patterns. More competition is good. I posted a Show: HN but it seems to have been buried/blocked as it got no attention whatsoever. I would love to hear your feedback/thoughts/ideas.
If people wanted a new Reddit, which is to say a website in front of Usenet that is social and allows voting, what other features would you find interesting?
I'm sure there's someone reading these comments who is looking for a side project, and this may be interesting to them... let's help them out.
I do not know if it makes financial sense, but I would be very interested in trying out a new Reddit with a more representative subreddit moderators.
Currently, moderators are selected with little input from the community members. Because mods produce the content policies of a community, members don't have the most effective tools to effect the policies of their communities (where they can spend a lot of time and effort).
Ideally, moderators would be selected by vote but that's a challenge of its own. I would still like to see more democratic forms of mod selection, it would also keep them accountable from abusing their power (arbitrary banning, censoring and/or taking bribes from corporations).
The thing that’s needed though is content, the problem that these spinoff Reddits have is that they seem to think catching the runoff is a good idea to build a community.
New reddit, whoever you may be, don’t populate yourselves with the communities that get banned from reddit.
I still can't use their new desktop design on my laptop. Apparently a 7 years old MacBook Pro isn't powerful enough to run neither Reddit nor Imgur particular well. I can do development, run an AppleTV emulator, VM's, a ton of Firefox tabs, and a stack of Python virtualenv's, just not the redesigned Reddit at a reasonable speed.
i didnt find how to turn off notifications about trending topics on android app without going to android settings- so i uninstalled the app.It was enough for me.
There's no perfect community physically either. Utopias usually devolve into cults. And even an honest and heartfelt kibbutz has to deal with local authorities and the shit show above them.
It's set theory, really. Every community is analagous to a set other than V. Since V is not Utopia, every community has poor conditions in some ancestral superset, which inevitably rain down on them.
"You might be able to control local conditions, but that doesn't rule out a meteor from afar" - Michael Scott
> even HN is full of commies / libertarians / fascists / etc. etc.
Translation: Everywhere I go I keep running into people who aren't just like me. Wherever can I find the perfect community where everyone is just like me and my familiar worldviews are never challenged?
I wouldn't think I am - I've had a bad run with the last few, but I do endeavor to post seriously, I'm not rude in comment threads, and what I am posting is not unrelated to the topic.
If you disagree, please let me know and I'll take a look at them.
To elaborate on my comment, which I think is neither insubstantive nor flamebait: It's absurd to suggest that users are not to blame here. On one hand, they complain about it, but on the other hand, they obviously use the app, or else they wouldn't bother maintaining it. Being subject to all of this tracking nonsense is what within economics is known as a 'revealed preference'. In other words, it is the case that the users chose this future, or as the meme goes, this is the future you chose.
From the outside, you've been posting a lot of low effort comments. Take this one for example --- if the 'elaboration' was part of the first comment, it would have been solid. As it was, it only addressed people who already agreed with your unspoken conclusion. Yes, it's more effort to make the full comment the first time, but it makes for a better site overall.
I comment here because I upvoted several of your comments on the Mike Godwin thread earlier today because I thought they were unfairly downvoted. But even in those cases, you probably could have prevented the downvotes if you'd spent a little more effort of making your case in the opening comment, rather than defending it in the followups.
Your point of view is appreciated, so please stick around despite the downvotes. But at the same time, please take the effort to post higher quality initial comments so that you avoid most of those downvotes.
Thank you for the feedback; I truly appreciate it. However, I am unsure whether it actually holds true; the elaborating comment to which you are replying currently stands at -1.
It's supported behavior to downvote comments based on disagreement[0][1], so it seems like the system is working as it should.
Okay, I know they're chasing one of two things here: a higher level of revenue from the advertising they can embed in the app, or some app-download metric that can be converted somehow somewhere to more money.
But for users like me, they have a couple of significant problems. First, that if I were at all motivated to use their stupid app in the first place, I would've already done, which means that these attempts to force the issue mean they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, and ohwow that looks bad.
And two, I don't trust them. There is absolutely no way I am ever going to give them that level of access to my device just so I can browse their website. And every step of their behavior here only reinforces my decision. They aren't tempting me into using their app with irresistible new features that really can't be provided by a regular ol' mobile website. Instead, they're showing me just what kind of behavior I should expect from their app by playing these dirty little games.
On the plus side, all this has caused my Reddit time to fall off a cliff and I'm cruising through books at double last year's rate now.