Do the makers think that there's a sizeable portion of people that hate their iPhones or Galaxies and want to spend $350 on a phone that doesn't do things? Doesn't do social media, doesn't do email, doesn't do news. Most consumers would at this point ask "What's the fucking point?"
Smartphones are popular because people want to do the things that they enable. You probably need to live in some sort of a niche social circle in order to justify $350 just to be able to tell people how your minimalist phone is not able to browse the Internet.
If you just wanted to have a basic phone that doesn't do a lot of things, you could buy a Nokia 3310 for $60. You just don't get to brag about your disconnected way of living since the Nokia 3310 can actually do those things.
I looked seriously at the first Light Phone. The main problem I found was that it's explicitly designed to be a second phone. You still needed to have a primary smartphone, and it would pair with that (and use the same number, somehow). It was just a phone for "I'm going out to dinner and I don't want to potentially be distracted by the internet, but I still want to be reachable". That seems to me like the intersection of two Venn circles that barely touch.
I might pay $350 for a phone that does only what I need, but I'm definitely not going to pay $350 extra for a second phone that only does what I need on top of a modern smartphone to leave at home that does lots of crap I don't.
The second Light Phone looks like it started moving towards being feasible as an only phone, but also piling on a strange set of features, for a phone designed to limit distractions. There's still SMS messaging but no encrypted messaging or email (and they brag it will never have these), but there is now music and ride hailing and so on.
So close, and yet so far! Any telco entrepreneurs out there: make me a little box that's only about communication with individuals I know (talk, text, popular encrypted chat, email), with modern interfaces (LTE, Wifi, USB-C), and I'll buy one. I bet my parents would, too.
$350 is not the problem -- service will still be the biggest cost in the long run. It's just not a useful device even for people looking to slim down and avoid distractions.
Wow... just use a glorified Bluetooth speaker and you’re there! Put all the configuration in an app on your “real” phone and it’s barely a hardware project and a contract programming job.
If you really want to minimize distraction that’s fine. The Bluetooth accessory can even limit logins (through TFA) by time and number (length would be complicated).
I miss those things. Shame they killed BIS in my country, so those are mostly unusable today.
I think the best way to achieve it all again is to create a set of interlocking apps who help you get things done instead of wooing you with animations for android and create your own distro with those apps pre-setup based on CyanogenMod/LineageOS/etc. This way you can use existing hardware, gain productivity and still be able to access tge appstore for everything someone needs for their personal work flow, like the tan generator of your bank.
You’re glossing away a lot of important details here with “phone that doesn’t do things”.
So, I’m very much in the market for what the Light Phone 2 is going for: not a phone that doesn’t do anything but make calls and text, but a phone with “the essentials”. The problem is that not everyone who wants such a phone has the same set of essentials.
The single biggest issue that I have with feature phones is that they lack a qwerty keyboard. I’ve tried a couple in the past few years, and I just can’t go back to texting on a numeric keypad. Texting today is very different from what it was in the 90s and early 2000s. So many conversations you would have today, you cannot meaningfully participate in with a numeric keypad. You find yourself immediately going back to the terseness that gave birth to the various forms of texting shorthand, because text input is so slow.
The second biggest issue is that I need a transit map. I live in NYC, and I’m not going to memorize all the different subway lines and stops and schedules. You can actually get Google Maps on a KaiOS phone, and it’s slow but it more or less works. Problem is, you’re still stuck with the numeric keypad. (You can use voice dictation via Google, but I don’t like using Google.)
Third, while I don’t need it often, I do sometimes need to use a ride-hailing app.
On top of all this, I don’t want a browser or social media apps or games or movies or music.
That’s just me, though. Someone else may want music, or a note taking app, or a calendar.
A lot of this stuff is on the roadmap for the Light Phone 2, but until it actually hits my set of essentials, it doesn’t work for me.
I was going to say the same thing, not from personal long-term experience with the NYC subway system, but from regular experience with the London Underground, which is quite similar in terms of size and passenger numbers.
Then I had a look at the subway map and I can see why one might refrain from memorising the various lines and relevant stops: There are few significant features for distinguishing the lines, even the colours are very similar in some cases, and the stops often have cryptic or very similar names.
The London Underground map on the other hand is incredibly well-designed: The colours for the different lines are optimised for recognisability to the point they're almost iconic. On seeing a pink colour on the underground for example you can immediately tell "Hammersmith & City".
The lines and stops usually have easily memorable, often quirky names, too. This of course is in part due to London's long history, rather than a deliberate design decision.
However, usability still seems to have played a role when individual stops were named. For example, "Elephant & Castle" could've been easily named a far less memorable "London Rd." as well.
> On seeing a pink colour on the underground for example you can immediately tell "Hammersmith & City".
I just wish they'd strictly adhere to matching the livery and the line colour, though. It's SUCH a good idea, but with trains sharing the same track on different lines, it causes no end of confusion!
You can get a cheap smartphone, put just the basics on it, and have someone else activate parental controls and keep the password from you so you are restricted to those basics.
I can see how that seems useless to the average neurotypical, but devices with limited functionality are a huge plus for people that fights against strong compulsions.
I still think $350 is a lot, but when you have ADHD devices with a lot of features can be very detrimental to your productivity and your well-being.
I don't think you can separate features and price in this case. Looking vaguely iPhone 5-ish is not a feature that should add hundreds of dollars to the price.
My last dumb phone, which I bought to carry while cycling, cost me $30. Sure, it was ugly, but since the point is to not take it out of your pocket and play around with it, who cares?
This phone strikes me as the veganism of dumb phones. You want people to acknowledge the "sacrifice" you're making, so you're going to keep it visible, while you self-consciously don't interact with it.
I kind of understand why you went with the veganism example, but it seems slightly bizarre that it's your first choice. I think it's fair to say that most vegans' decision to become vegan has nothing to do with being sanctimonious. Not a vegan, though.
I'm not sure if that is the case. They seem to be trying to provide some basic functions so the product remain useful even without regular smartphone features. Whether if they achieve this or not is a more subjective matter.
You make such excited, highly normative claims about a phone, complete with involved speculation about the motives of anyone who might like it, and decide to insult people's eating choices along the way.
I could speculate about personal insecurity issues, but instead will simply note that not everyone comes from the same place you do or share your particular concerns or needs. It is a big world, exploring it some might be good for you.
That was my resolution a couple of months back. Signed off from Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Reddit (never was on any other platform making crazy things with your snaps). Retaining accounts on HN and GitHub.
I miss nothing, actually feel good staying away from all the toxic comments on Twitter.
I did not need Light Phone or burn a hole in my pocket to achieve this. Plain simple determination.
Was not having a TV super trendy somewhere? I know plenty of people who don't have a Facebook account, but we're the only household I know of that's committed to watching their Netflix on a 13" laptop screen.
I actually really want a stripped down phone
- but without some of the popular messenging apps it's effectively a non-starter for daily use, both from a business and a personal perspective.
This is what compelled me to sell my Blackberry Passport, a lovely device with a good keyboard and a great OS (based on QNX).
I didn't care that it no longer had a FB or Twitter client, or that I couldn't access other soc.nets.
But for a comms-centric device with a wonderful unified inbox, the fact that it no longer worked with WhatsApp, FB Messenger and so on was a killer. A phone that can't talk to them is not really a phone any more in C21.
I would guess the high price is partly because there is not so much demand and they don't have the volume. It's a niche product. I think it makes sense to set the price way up and only target the people who really want this. Why does everything have to appeal to some abstract group of 'most cosumers'?
The first part of solving a problem is admitting one has a problem. Just like alcoholics and addicts admit problems, the solutions (rehab, withdrawal medications) are expensive, maybe this is the same thing?
I backed the Light Phone 2 with the thought that it's kind of like being an early Tesla buyer. People buy the Tesla to look cool, sure, but some also buy it because they want to see a world where cars become something they weren't before, and solve problems with existing cars (pollution, etc).
I'd love to see a world where people talk to each other again rather than sit at lunch, dinner, watching TV, whatever, with their phones out and ignoring each other. There aren't a lot of phones in this space so backing something like this may help create the market I want to see. I don't want to "live disconnected", but I do want to limit my behaviors like "hey let me interrupt this conversation so you can watch while I google that random thing we'll forget about in a minute".
Previously I had an LG slider phone with a physical qwerty keyboard for 5-6 years before buying the Light Phone 2.
I also hate the size of current smart phones, they're just so big. I'm weird I know, but I actually liked the size of my iphone 3G.
As a software engineer I'm hoping they get the custom "tools" available soon so I can tinker with that. I'd like to experiment with making a 2FA tool like Authy or some kind of push notification.
All in all, the Light Phone 2 is kind of slow to use, but it works, and it's not red like my LG was, so it starts less conversations when I use it.
Well, yes, of course that's what they think. And so far they have been right given that they are currently back ordered and saw 10,700+ backers on Indiegogo raising $3.5MM for the thing.
I got mine still in the box in a drawer somewhere. The main selling point for me were the additional features compared to the original. From the FAQ:
> These tools are currently being developed and will be released in the coming few months
These tools being the promised features of Music / Notes / Calculator / Directions / Ride hailing, and "coming months" being the end of 2019.
It's been almost two years since the launch, and the original light phone will soon celebrate it's 5th anniversary so I'm not sure I should hold my breath. If anybody from the team is reading this, I'd love to hear what's blocking the software development side.
My three year old and I actually had a lot of fun with the Calculator app on my phone just a couple hours ago. He thought that me reading off large numbers was hilarious.
So, yeah, Calculator is a pretty important feature.
I read that Nintendo invented the "Game & Watch" games (pre-dating the GameBoy) after an engineer watched a businessman on a train entertaining himself by playing with a calculator.
For the original, maybe. This second edition was supposed to hit a sweet spot of no distractions, but enough features to live a normal modern life (ex: maps), and have a shot at being your main phone.
I would say ask me anything but I’m in the middle of the Australian outback with virtually no mobile signal...!
What I can say is that working with Eink is rudimentary - we had to build everything from a custom kernel driver all the way up to the view layouts and UX. We expected Eink would give us sophisticated SDKs, but unfortunately a lot of wheels had to be reinvented. I have huge respect for the team behind the Yota Phone!
I’ve written a tear down of how it all works that I’ll be sharing soon on our company twitter if anyone is interested.
I like the premise of E-Ink as smartphone display for anyone who uses the smartphone display for text, light static graphics consumption. I'm seeing more manufacturers trying to bring cheaper E-Ink smartphones to the market[1][2].
I understand the philosophy of Light Phone and thereby it not having Internet browser; but, HN on Kindle Oasis has always been a pleasant experience to me if the linked article website uses standard web development practices(cough TechCrunch).
Thank you! And yes - including a browser was a big debate, but ultimately we wanted to ensure minimalism and restraint was enforced on the software level.
A browser means instagram, facebook and email are all readily accessible. A lot of users like our device because it’s impossible to get to those platforms...
That said - grids of instagram selfies rendered to a 2.84” Eink screen would surely be an interesting art experiment, ha!
It is a wise SW development decision, I see the browser development on Alt-SmartPhone OS like Ubuntu Touch being its Achilles heel; by removing Internet browser you've created more value for your target audience and saved yourself from the perils of browser development!
The screen helps a lot, but because the device runs full Android (we have a complete Wifi and Bluetooth stack) there’s only so much we can optimize.
In very passive use (using airplane mode liberally), it can last 7+ days but realistically most users will see it last between 3 - 7.
Some more work can go into antenna tuning, however. We support two different markets (North America and Global) which have different bands. In areas with poor mobile service, devices usually spend a lot of battery power searching for signal. We’re hoping to improve on that in a future FOTA update!
Yup, exactly. I would have liked to use something like KaiOS, but we had a short deadline and that would have meant porting/rewriting a bunch of Qualcomm drivers for the snapdragon on KaiOS.
We also couldn’t preempt the new features we’d like to add (directions, find my phone, etc), so full android felt like a safer option all things considered.
Given it's running Android underneath, does Android Auto work with it when connected to a compatible car head unit? Having no Android Auto nav and phone integration is one reason I wouldn't pick a device like this.
I think an Apple Watch with cellular accomplishes a lot of what light phone does. Leave your phone behind and just keep all the social apps off the watch (they’re not really usable anyway).
You can still accomplish a lot of what you need from a phone, and pair some AirPods and you have music, podcasts, easy hands free calling
I know this is crazy but one can also just not install social apps on one’s phone, and continue to use all the functions that still provide a great deal of utility without compromises.
The problem is that it’s an addiction — I was addicted, so I would still access those apps via the browser. Until I permanently deleted all of my accounts, I would still be looking at them for hours a day. Even now, I waste my time with Reddit or even HN. :)
The root problem is much deeper and I think it’s difficult to address without behavior change (which is hard). Making it very difficult to do is a good compromise while you’re also working on building self control. These phones take that difficulty to a new level so long as you’re away from your other devices.
I’m with you - I had to ask my wife to change my Twitter password and not tell me. Facebook was easier. When I have to access for local community things I use Firefox Focus. It’s still addictive, but my sessions are fewer. That said, I’m still on here and a few other places (craigslist for sale stream, anyone?) as placeholders. I wouldn’t say it is hours per day, but it was more time than I wanted.
I’ve found productive addictions include things like ear training, Duolingo, etc - they replace the tactile sensation and give you that quieter time to yourself but at least you’re learning.
You don't really have that choice. Many social apps (Facebook, Instagram, Twitter) aren't possible to uninstall unless you use a custom ROM. You can only "disable" the apps.
It's still perfectly possible to just not open them/log in, obviously.
Sadly, it depends. Many manufacturers have deals in place with Facebook, etc to prevent the un-installation of these apps. At best you can "disable" them completely, achieving the same effective result. Any downloaded updates to the app will be removed and it will be _supposedly_ incapable of running in the background. I suspect however that there are also other e.g. Facebook services running in the background that need to be explicitly disabled with Android running in developer mode.
This isn't a problem if you have a rooted device, but root is difficult/impossible to obtain on certain devices (like Samsung's Galaxy 8 onward) due to enterprise level tamper-proofing.
Having said all that, I just got an unlocked Pixel 4 and it has zero of that bloat. If you happen to consider the Google services themselves bloat/tracking (they often are), rooting is fully supported which allows you to install an Android distribution without any Google services.
Unfortunately it's complicated. There are many OEMs, and each configures things to their liking. Then there are carrier branding deals which (often) result in per-carrier customizations on top of that.
Typically, "uninstallable" apps can be disabled via adb commands if you don't want to (or can't) flash a custom ROM. Sometimes they can't however - for example, Amazon sells subsidized phones that display advertisements on the lock screen.
I think that going out with an Apple Watch instead of a phone will become popular as a way of (partially) unplugging. It will also signal that the wearer is not an ordinary worker bee (who need to keep a phone around to respond to emails) but instead a member of upper management (who can skim important messages that come in, but needs not respond at length).
> (who can skim important messages that come in, but needs not respond at length).
iWatch + Airpods + dictation, my friend. It is amazing.
If only the apple watch could play audiobooks (on Audible) and music (on Spotify) without a phone nearby, it would be the perfect minimalist phone. Alas until that happens I have to continue to lug my phone around when sportsing.
You can download books to the Audible watch app but I've never gotten it to work. The connection just isn't stable enough.
The new WatchOS supposedly enables the API that Apple Music has been using to stream via LTE (from what I've heard), but it smells like Spotify has decided it's no longer worth the bother.
Do you just deal with having typos in a long reply? You can’t edit watch dictation, so a lot of my replies including some form of “damned apple watch” so people I’m replying to know what’s up.
That said I quite like the combo in general. A big reason I went with apple music is the streaming. It is baffling to me that spotify hasn’t enabled lte streaming on the watch now that watchos 6 lets them.
I am a spelling perfectionist too but oddly enough I'm starting to notice I don't respect people who write perfect messages as much as those who let an occasional error through. Maybe it's because I know they waste time, or that they are not confident enough to skip the editing - and related, that they are probably low on the totem pole. It's a weird effect, and yet I still can't bring myself not to overedit.
You misunderstand: apple watch dictation doesn’t merely make typos. It mangles things. So you might have a message like:
“Can you get broccoli from the store? Oh also we need kill thompson’s party. I mean we need kale for the party. Damned apple watch”
You can either abandon the whole message, or repeat what you said to get it right. And include a disclaimer to show you didn’t mean the insane thing Siri wrote. On long messages it can get quite annoying to start over, as I find it hard to finish a long message without at least one oddly mangles phrase.
I tried this when I noticed that I was overusing my phone, and it worked very well. I have kids so can’t completely unplug, but a watch+cellular meant I was contactable for short messages and emergencies but couldn’t sit there mindlessly scrolling.
It was amazing how easily I made friends in bars and cafes like this, simply by looking up and being alert to my environment.
I'd love to a have a small limited device, but I'd rather not wear an Apple Watch as I prefer analog watches for aesthetic reasons. I suppose I could keep it in my pocket, but that's a little weird.
Watch series 540mm, sports band, gps + cellular: $659
AirPods and regular charging case: $219
Combo = $878
iPhone 11 = $979
You could pick different models to make either case true (eg. iPhone XR is $799, watch series 3 cellular is $429). But nonetheless watch + AirPods is pretty close to the price of a phone it seems!
The xr starts at $600. It’s a rich person fantasy that you’d go for two fallible devices which work poorly for basic things like texting, ride hailing, looking up menus rather than one device that does more.
I switched back to a Nokia 3310, disabled data and love it. Its cheap, I can make calls, I can sms, I can take really crappy photos when I need to remember something. Calculator, Alarms, few other little things. It's all I need.
I just received my light phone and while I haven't used it much yet I'm mostly a fan. I used the Punkt MP01 for a while and it's still pretty much my favorite phone ever. We'll see how I feel about the E-ink display on this thing after some real use. The blinking and ghosting is kind of annoying, but not a deal-breaker. Honestly though I think the main reason I liked the Punkt phone so much was the buttons. Buttons are seriously underrated. I've noticed this already with entering text on the light phone. The screen is purposefully small and trying to cram a full keyboard onto a tiny touchpad is a little iffy.
I'm not so concerned about the lack of features at this point. I'd already though about coding up my own little text bot with Twilio to call rides through lyft or uber's APIs so maybe this will give me some incentive.
Edit: Yeah the flipping back and forth between landscape and portrait mode is pretty annoying. Devs if you're reading this please address in a future update.
The Light Phone and Punkt both have a disadvantage: they're not rugged while they are expensive. On the long term I'm interested in a dumbphone for my child (and I am interested in living a disconnected life, on top of that, myself, with an offline e-reader and an offline DAP serving me quite well), but it needs to be rugged. If it is not rugged and not durable, then what is the point of using such? You can't take it for hiking, you have to be super careful with it like an expensive, normal smartphone.
Step 2 involves setting up a passcode. I recommend getting a friend to enter this passcode, then hide it away from you, since you obviously can't trust your junkie brain.
I did this and it is RAD. I still use a subset of communication-oriented social media, but my phone is kind of boring now, in a good way.
I’ve heard about the black & white mental hack multiple times and finally tried it today after reading this comment. I like it already and have applied it to my computer as well. Not sure how much of the effect is real vs. placebo (or if that distinction even matters) but the reduction in stimuli seems to sharpen my focus.
Modern smartphones already give you the tools to stop abusing your phone’s dominance of your attention.
Screen time and other similar controls let you limit your usage of distracting apps. Or just don’t install them and learn some self control. Put your phone in your bag instead of your pocket, or maybe leave it at home sometimes.
A black and white phone missing basic features compared to a modern Nokia feature phone along with being currently unavailable to purchase without waiting is, overall, a shitty proposition.
And I didn’t even see the price before writing all that out. $350. No way. A KaiOS device seems way more sensible.
I've installed and uninstalled reddit maybe 7 times in the last year, and even when I don't have it installed I still visit it from my browser.
For my Firefox desktop I have written 5 extensions that blocks websites in various ways so to help me control my bad urges, but even then I just open up safari and use it from there.
Fact is just I can't control it, and I am willing to pay thousands of dollars for any solution that solves these problems without limiting the use of technology I actually want in my life.
If you’re willing to spend thousands of dollars, book a 1-week trip to a slightly remote place where internet is hard or even impossible to get. Don’t bring your phone. Just money. The location doesn’t even have to be in the middle of the woods. Just a small town or village where there’s nothing much more to do than sightseeing and walking around and having a drink at the local bar/pub. A beach resort is also a nice option as you’ll have fun activities to fill your days. Of course a modern resort will have internet so the temptation will be harder to beat so maybe pick a tiny one.
In any case, the idea is to have a physical disconnection with your phone/the internet so that you can’t satisfy any urge to check Reddit. The start will be rough but over time your fear of missing out will disappear. I find that if I spend time traveling or with family (where browsing reddit or similar is not easy) I realise when coming back home that I haven’t missed anything. I used to browse Reddit a lot. Nowadays I just check /r/soccer once in a while and spend time doing a lot more of other things (music, coding, reading, nothing).
Throwaway, because my professional profile is connected to my main:
You just don't get it. Neither does anyone complaining about $350 for a brick. You're not the audience. This isn't for you.
This is for the people that both; value their time ($350 is less than an hour of work and consequently it would take me more than an hour to properly lockdown my phone) and are looking for absolutely no room for distraction.
I sympathize with the GP, becaue I am exactly like him. The basis for impulsivity is physiological. There is no pre-thought "Oh I want to do this, wait maybe I shouldn't" it's just a pure feeling that moves you to do.
I have had many social media accounts, I've made and deleted them many times. I also have many browser extensions and hosts files to stop myself from visiting known runaway triggers.
It's untenuable. Amphetamines/stimulants help, but the trade-offs are too great.
A week-long retreat can "disconnect" you, but that doesn't mean anything when you come back and jump right back into it.
I've gone so far as to buy a large amount of rural property, have a cabin with basic electricity, where I run a very barebones W500 OpenBSD ThinkPad with satellite internet (2Mbps/s). It can't do any kind of media processing (YouTube, movies, etc.).
It is by far the most productive environment I have ever been in, and I paid for all of this, because that's what I value.
I'm only posting this, because I impulsively turned off mt extensions and went into the HN rabbit hole.
I also mentioned that you could get a feature phone. Heck, a cellular Apple Watch could be purchased for cheaper than this phone, and it’s arguably a more convenient form factor.
From what I’m reading it seems like this Light Phone is missing basics that you’d get in a standard flip phone.
I can understand the sentiment of being "fed up" with the state of current phone technology, but rather then bringing back dumbphones (see also Nokia's current product range), why not make phones that have headphone jacks, removable batteries, microSD card slots, IPS displays, et cetera. The features that were "removed" to presumably promote consumerism.
You can do exactly that kind of things with your regular smartphone by not installing tons of apps that disturb you all the time. As far as I know the user is pretty much in control of what apps they choose to add.
In that case, Putting the phone in DND mode 24x7 and only using it only when we need it exponentially limits phone usage and interruptions.
But, not many can afford having their phone in DND mode all the time due to their job/family requirements(I do it and I've read few others on HN doing it). Then again, there are jobs which require you to install apps on your personal device or at-least communication apps like Slack, Teams etc.; In those case even Light Phone cannot be used.
We usually pick up right where we left off. Most big news are communicated directly through WhatsApp. I obviously check my messages every once in a while.
You can, but, IMO, smartphones are starting to feel like a money pit, too, not just a time pit. You spend $500 - $1500 on a device that can't be expected to last more than 4 years (presumably a fair bit less if you cut too close to the $500 end of the range), and will have an annoyingly short battery life in 2 years. You have to constantly be careful with it, because if you drop it or it gets scratched by a key or something, there's a good chance that that enormous, fragile screen will shatter and need replacement. etc. etc.
I am considering switching back to a dumbphone because I miss being able to buy a phone for $100 and have it work, without fuss, more-or-less indefinitely. Throw a hotspot feature in there so I can get my $200 iPod Touch connected when I need to, and I've still got a decent enough way to listen to podcasts or catch up on my Instapaper feed while I'm waiting for the bus, or whatever, while saving a fair bit of money. It also theoretically lets me have all the apps and suchlike while still being able to mitigate distraction.
I like this phone in principle, but I'm afraid $350 price point is a bit tough to swallow. I assume that a big part of the price is the eInk display, which is a bit of a shame since it looks like it doesn't actually have any features that wouldn't also work just fine with a cheapo monochrome LCD.
My current device, the moto e5 play, retailed for $120. It still works just fine for me for use cases like web browsing, 720p video, remote desktop, etc. Prior to that I had the e4 which worked great until I dropped it down 5 flights of stairs.
Regarding the battery health issue, I have found the biggest factor to be not recharging soon enough. Don't let your battery drop too low and you will have substantially better battery health.
The camera’s the main thing keeping me on smartphones. My iPhone 7 Plus is a better camera (for me) than anything but maybe a newer iPhone, and also entirely replaces a document scanner. May drop the data plan though, go WiFi-only.
And cut its expected lifespan, already only 2-4 years, by 2 years.
No more software updates isn't such a big deal on dumbphones with limited capabilities, but, on a smartphone, I really do want to be getting those security patches.
Ironically my OS said that this computer lacks sufficient RAM, when i allowed javascript because 'This App needs Javascript to function' appeared. Then the browser tab crashed with the option to close, or reload. Guess what i choose?
Did i miss something?
edit: Yes, yes, i had many tabs open already, but seriously: LIGHT?
I don't really care about the price of the phone, because I'm sure it's more expensive to produce on a smaller scale than mainstream manufacturers, but the plan is $30 for unlimited texting and calling? Really?
You can get unlimited minutes/SMS and several GB for $10-20/mo from various MVNOs nowadays. Why they would bother marketing a plan that is $30/mo with no data is beyond me.
I already own a device that does just the basics, the cellular Apple Watch:
- make calls
- text messages
- calculator
- navigation
- plays music and podcasts
- and can track my heart rate and speed when I am running.
It lets me leave my phone when I don’t want distractions. When I need something more full featured, I have my phone. When I want something full featured with a larger screen, I have an iPad. Calls and text messages go to all three devices and things are synced where appropriate.
I think this phone is the perfect device for someone like my grandmother that can't even answer the phone on her smartphone because she can't slide the answer button. Smartphones nowadays are very complicated machines with hundreds of UX concepts that are not understandable by a increasingly higher proportion of the population. And you can never disable every function ("apps" in iMessage, really?!).
My grandmother uses an Android phone I've very heavily customised (deleted apps with adb, put a Windows Phone-like launcher with flashing icons for notifications, compiled custom versions of OSS apps for SMS and calls, etc.). This Light Phone seems perfect for her.
> If the point is to be reachable by a loved one in an emergency and nothing else, this seems like a reasonable option.
Not even close. You can get a basic phone plus sim card for like $40 or less and then pay a few dollars (or less) a month on prepay to keep it connected to the network.
This is a toy secondary phone for those with disposable income, not a valid low-income alternative.
>If the point is to be reachable by a loved one in an emergency and nothing else, this seems like a reasonable option.
$350 is not a reasonable option to be reachable by a loved one when a brand new Nokia 3310 is like $60 and can do standby for like 3-4 weeks with a single charge.
ITT? This isn't Reddit. Of course people are going to talk about missing features.
If the point is to be reachable by a loved one in an emergency and nothing else, I can think of a hundred other options that don't cost $350. I think that's what you meant.
Feels like a solution looking for a problem to me. Not only are phones trending away from being "phones" (rather portable internet terminals) but I'd wager the largest portion of smartphone use is content consumption, rather than content creation/collaboration. Both of which would suggest this device is a long, long way from product-market fit.
I think it's in the zeitgeist a bit now. Some people (I'm certainly one) are looking to unhook from their phones - get away from convenience and immediacy and... the internet in general (typing this from Emacs, so it seems more forgivable!).
I know at least 5 people - a large percentage of my close network ;) - who would be interested in this device. I'm sure there's a big enough market for it if the execution is right. Though I'm personally waiting for Librem for the security/privacy aspects.
Your network isn't representative of the broader market. Only a tiny niche are actively looking to unhook. Sure plenty of people will claim they want to do so because they think they ought to. But they're not willing to pay actual money for it.
As long as you don't use the phone much, they won't see you have a cheap phone either. The Light Phone 2 seems like a rather small smartphone. Without the music feature (offline Spotify is OK) it is still not very useful to me though. I used to run around with a walkman. Then I had an iRiver H340 with 40 GB (when everyone was running around with ~4 GB iPods). I'm not going back to no music with me, pre walkman years. I had one with me since elementary school because I was so bored.
You significantly overestimate people’s level of self control and also the amount of money time and effort companies put in to make these technologies addictive.
Here's the main problem: I am the target market and I can easily just make my Android phone behave in this manner. I rarely touch it except to read on the Kindle app and cast to the TVs.
I don't think you're the target market in that case. This phone would be for people who desperately want to reduce their phone usage but lack the willpower.
Not saying that's a large market, but I do think it exists. At the 350$ price point though it seems more like it would be for wealthier people looking to signal that they're part of a sort of "offline" movement.
I can see this phone being a great fit for certain markets, such as senior citizens who like to talk on the phone, but who get baffled by the complexity of modern smartphones.
I can't see any fit for any person outside of bragging rights. A senior citizen would be better served by a Nokia 3310, which actually has physical buttons.
It's pretty much bragging rights. Or, put another way, it's an aesthetically pleasing signal to those around you that you're part of a movement trying to reduce screen consumption.
The organic foods industry has these sorts of seemingly niche products which are more expensive but become quite trendy because of what they represent for the customer and their peers. Not sure how well it applies here though.
Be careful with this. AT&T shut down its GSM network 3 years ago. The ~only unlocked LTE feature phone I could find a year or two ago for my grandma (who wouldn't be able to learn how to use a smartphone) was an Alcatel Flip 2.
I think the philosophy behind this is lovely, but it unfortunatly falls short in reality because the flexibility of smart phones is their entire value.
If I want a phone that allows me to make phone calls and send texts and otherwise not distract me, there are a billion £30 feature phones that will do that, and have a week+ battery life.
If I want a phone that does anything "smart" but doesn't distract me, what I consider "smart" but not "distracting" is going to be different to everyone else, to the point where you need an app store to manage all that difference. Which is why the only real option is to just manage what apps you install, manage how it interacts with you (eg notification and noise settings), regulate how you interact with it (ie stop picking it up, leave it in a different room etc), and do all that with a normal smart phone.
I get this is supposed to be minimalist but the texting interaction looks really rough. You read threaded conversations in portrait mode but to reply it switches you to landscape mode where you can’t see the conversation and can only see the reply you’re typing. Nokia candy bar phones from the mid 90s let me type a reply while looking at what I was replying to.
Which does kinda make you wonder many things, more so, that price. Everything else seems to of been already covered in past discussions over the many many years.
Possibly that's the point of such a phone. Because if it was up to one's choice then I believe one doesn't need any special phone for lesser usage of (smart)phones or use it the way one wants. No?
I wonder where this is heading. The original light phone (version 1 if I remember correctly) was simply for calling and very minimalistic.
To that I am a bit disappointed that they are adding more features instead of cutting prices.
There were some background articles explaining they had to. The first version was too minimalist, not even the phone makers ended up using them. The set of the absolutely necessary services for a phone is bigger than one would think and it differs more - does it include maps? taxi services? texting? Answer will vary a lot, and by making it too minimalist they would end up satisfying no one.
It's interesting to see exactly that happening in the comments here - "if it only had X, Y and Z I would buy it".
> It's interesting to see exactly that happening in the comments here - "if it only had X, Y and Z I would buy it".
The classic response of anyone not financially invested in a product. Hopefully they follow through with their intention not to throw in the kitchen sink rather than burn all their resources trying to attract a picky customer base that has no intention of ever actually buying the phone.
More and more, the voice calling feature is becoming obsolete. With the exception of hands free use in the car while driving, I essentially never use my phone to make calls.
Text is asynchronous and thus the other party can respond when it's convenient. I resent voice calls as an intrusion and rarely answer them.
The next killer app for me is in the network and it's the SHAKEN/STIR validation helping to show some UI indicator of a "verified caller ID". Luckily it looks like mobile carriers will be there first and when they are it's game over for spam.
I just wish Apple make a modern thinner All Screen iPhone 4. ( Even smaller than iPhone SE ) The screen should be about 4.7" @ 19.5 : 9.
The smaller screen absolutely destroy all gaming and even Internet browsing experience. The UX is so bad you dont want to use it, but still give you the choice should there be a need. While retaining all the essential such as Email, WhatsApp, Calling, Uber, And Music etc.
That's hyperbolic nonsense. There's a huge number of people, myself included, that continue to use an iPhone SE with a 4" screen without the issues you describe. A 4.7" screen is nearly 20% larger than that; it doesn't "destroy" gaming or internet browsing.
A lot of these same people Apple to release an updated version of the iPhone SE form-factor. Many of these people are on Hacker News; search for earlier threads about the iPhone SE being discontinued to see just how many.
I got one of these for my 13 year old. We’re trying to ease her into having a phone without giving her Instagram etc. quite yet, since we think smartphones can be dangerous for mental health of young teens.
The phone has been a mix of good and bad. The software is still somewhat buggy. I think the hardest thing is that the eInk screen ghosts a lot and has a very long refresh cycle, which really can get in the way of using it. There are times when you just can’t read the screen because it has so much ghosting. Emoji work but are so tiny they are hard to read.
Overall - I still like it and hope it gets updated software to add the missing features (music, for example). But the screen is a pretty big compromise. I’d probably be happier if they used a standard LCD screen.
Are there any good websites with turn by turn directions that are accessible on dumb phones?
I had a Nokia candy bar phone with 4G(!) which was reasonable if you wanted to win an argument using Wikipedia, but Maps was unusable because the ancient Opera browser couldn't cope. All I wanted was the ability to get the text directions between two places without having to load all the intervening javascript. Hacker News worked well, as did BBC news.
There are several modern "dumb" phones which are actually quite capable and have absurd battery life (I'd get a week plus out of that thing, with 4G on), but there are so few websites that provide no-frills output.
Nokia 800 Tough apparently can do 4G and Google Maps.
>I can pair my Huawei FreeBuds 3 with the Nokia 800 Tough, install a bunch of music on it, and jump on my bike. Google Maps navigation provides turn-by-turn instructions at a glance while I’m listening to some good riding music. I’ve got no concerns about the battery running out or the phone falling out of my pocket. I can ask the Google Assistant questions to avoid typing queries into the browser. And if I need to, I can stay in touch with everyone via WhatsApp voice messages. The list of benefits goes on and on.
That looks good! It's an interesting way around the problem, just put an Alexa/G Assistant terminal in and you can interact via voice and avoid the phone all together. But that thing runs YouTube too??
Dual SIM is nice. If it could tether I'd buy that next time I go on a long holiday (edit - it does!). Non removable battery is a pity too, but I've never actually needed that.
I've been tempted by the CAT S60/61 though.
I wonder, would it be worth making a service that works over voice calls, not the Internet? For example have a phone at home that automatically picks up and relays your call into an Alexa or something, then you can hear the response. Minutes are so cheap it might actually work.
There are cheaper CAT (smart|dumb)phones which get less attention and fame, and have less functionality than the S60/S61 but which are also a lot cheaper.
The interesting conceptual design of the Light Phone is that it is a dedicated dumbphone with e-ink, like a Kobo reader is a dedicated e-reader with e-ink. E-ink works if the page stays static, as you read a book. A smartphone, and dumbphone to lesser extend, have higher screen refreshes. The trend on smartphones is that the screen Hz is going up from 60 to 90/120 and higher. Which has battery impact, but as long as the battery is empty each day, it is acceptable for a lot of people. Now, if my device (be it smartphone, smartwatch, whatever) is empty every day then I hook it up every day. If it is empty every week I hook it up weekly (e.g. on Sunday) but every 3 days is kinda inconvenient.
I'm mostly interested in the CAT as my job (research) involves a lot thermal imaging, so there's a nerd factor (the lepton on its own is about £3-400 with a capture setup). I know there's also the FLIR One, but eh, for field work the CAT looks handy with the extra sensors.
The light phone looks good, but I do actually want some of the smartphone features. I was very unhappy when Amazon nerfed 3G on Kindle, I used to use it for paper like maps when traveling in foreign cities. Google Maps worked very well.
Yes, at work we've got a variety of standalone FLIR cameras (Taus, Bosons, Duos, the One and Leptons) - pretty much the entire camera core range. I work in ecology and occasionally for outreach or when working with non tech people, they're interested in seeing what thermal footage looks like. And for field work it's handy to have environmental measurements in case we want to correct for atmospheric conditions (rarely tbh).
The FLIR One comes in a USB C model, I've played with that on my Pixel. Works great although I think you have to use the sdk to get any kind of useful information out of the camera (eg if you want raw data).
My group specialises in drone imaging and often it's useful to have ground footage so you can compare simultaneously, for example during biodiversity surveys. The problem with the plug in solution is the risk of it getting lost in the field, and it's not rugged enough. We recently did some surveys on a lake, so an IP rated phone with everything integrated would be ideal.
Any reason why the screen is so small? If it were larger and offered one handed access to keyboard that would be a huge plus instead of having to rotate the phone to type.
How do you type numbers you have to call? Do you rotate them phone and type the numbers?
What about music? The thing that people use the phones most for other than calls and messages would be music, considering the fact that there aren’t that many dedicated music players around a phone without a music player makes a lot less sense
Based on one of the pictures of the phone on the homepage, it appears that there is a numeric keyboard in portrait mode. It is shown setting the time for an alarm, but I imagine it is also used to type phone numbers.
It's also hard to supplement this with a Garmin or similar, because Google/Apple maps are perpetually up to date. And their UX doesn't completely suck.
It has texting. They are developing a "taxi" feature, which I think they'd be dumb not to integrate Uber into. And they have a screenshot of a "directions" app.
Why not just get a cheap underpowered Chinese smartphone that can do all the simple things but has a crap camera and a low res. easily scratched screen, so you don't bother taking pictures, a weak processor so web pages render so slowly that they discourage you from browsing, etc.
Then you can donate the remaining USD 250 to a more worthy cause.
Why not just get the bottom of the line unlocked Android phone from Walmart for $39?[1] Delete the Google crap, install F_Droid and some basic apps. That's basically what I have, on a Caterpillar Tractor ruggedized phone. No "social" anything. Base email, Fennic browser, ZANavi maps, Mozilla location info provider.
Someone could compete with these guys by buying low-end phones in bulk and reconfiguring them that way. Sell it for $49.
You're confusing "people who want to get rich" with "people who want useful products".
"People who want to get rich" are a significant subset of the HN population, and they are downvoting you because they remember Dropbox. You'll recall that Dropbox was met by "people who want useful products" saying "oh, I can do 90% of that with rsync".
Your solution is probably excellent for someone who knows what they are doing, but it won't make a lot of money, and it won't sell to the kind of status-conscious fanatic minimalist who always needs a new toy to prove their minimalism.
In fact, there are lots of caution signs around this product's website indicating that they aren't actually very good at the technical parts. I wouldn't be at all surprised to read a teardown showing that this is a low-end Android phone with an e-Ink display running a single shell program around the underlying dialer, SMS and alarm functions.
I get the mindset, but this is round 2 for the "light phone", round 1 having flopped.
I could see a low-end product which shares the phone number of the bigger phone. Something carriers could offer as a promotional item and a backup. "What do you do when your iPhone is in the shop for a broken screen?"
The amazing thing is that you can get 4 processors, a screen, 8GB, and a camera for $49.
- Get a phone in its no Google account state.
- When it demands that you log into Google, choose "Later".
- Delete Google First time app. This prevents the registration thing from coming up again.
- Download F-Droid.
- Use F-Droid to download Fennic, which is a version of Firestorm.
- Deactivae most Google apps, Play Store, etc. Play Store Services may have to stay.
- Use F-Droid to download other stuff as required.
You now have a useful Android phone with no Google account.
I don't get it. While it is better than an iPhone by having a headphone jack. Still who is the market here? Someone who doesn't want to use a phone much but can't pull themselves away from it or cutstomize an android phone to not bother them.
For that price you might as well get a Palm. It’s tiny and runs android, but I’m keeping one as a minimalist phone for when I don’t want to use my iPhone - https://palm.com/
This entire endeavor smells like an exercise of reaping good design. When I received the first iteration, I was excited only from the moment of unboxing to the moment of my first call.
I truly enjoy the sentiment and message behind this product. IMO though, at the rate they're going and in the direction they're headed, a consumer is better off with existing products that have been offering what Light II does for decades.
It's still very low even given the battery size. The updated Nokia 3310 has a traditional display with a 1200 mAh battery and is rated for a standby battery life of 31 days.
At 950 mAh that would be just over 24 days. I would expect an improvement in battery life with E-ink.
I'm curious why you take the battery life claim about the Light Phone at face value. My assumption is that most every company tests in optimal conditions that users won't achieve in real life, so I think it's generally fair enough to compare between two manufacturer claims given that we don't have side-by-side comparisons yet.
I'm curious to see what would happen if someone made a simple phone that behaved as an access point. Hook up my watch, my tablet, bluetooth headphones, let it stay in my pocket most of the time.
A little google voice magic, or any number of other SIP providers and apps will have you making calls to POTS numbers over just a data connection very easily.
I use nokia lumia 800, OS updates not supported so only factory apps when I feel like not to be disturbed.
I call forward to this phone and keep primary phone switched off.
1. Needs a bigger screen so that texting in portrait is possible / texting in landscape allows you to see the convo.
2. Needs data and basic data-driven apps - google maps, spotify. Any apps that aren't addictive and are used every day seem like they should be in any modern phone, even those intended to be minimalist.
I "need" things like banking on my phone, as well as email realistically.
My sister lost her phone a few christmases ago. As we wandered around NYC, going to bars and looking around, she said, "It's actually liberating to not have a phone." I think we forget how our attention is enslaved by them. Including myself, typing this out.
Sounds like you aren't the target market. If I hadn't just last week finally deactivated my dumb phone from 2011 and bought a cheap Motorola, I'd seriously consider this.
Literally all I want from a phone is the ability to call / text for coordinating near-term meetups with people, and the ability to receive / send calls in emergency situations.
Unfortunately, they don't make phones like that anymore.
I have my new phone set in battery saver mode with everything deactivated except the calling app, the texting app, and Facebook Messenger. The battery can last four or five days with this configuration, which pleasantly surprised me. Still can't match the two weeks I'd get out of my old dumb phone though.
Sounds like you aren't the target market either, since you want a phone that only does phone calls, text messages and Facebook Messenger, the latter of which the Light Phone does not do ("it'll never have social media!"). Furthermore, it's not even gonna have a better battery life than your jerryrigged phone since it apparently only does about a week on standby due to its tiny battery. And they expect you to pay $350 for this.
Also, I have no fucking idea when you say that "they don't make phones like that anymore", since Nokia still makes the 3310. Costs like 20% of what the Light Phone costs, does phone calls, text messages (and probably Facebook Messenger since it has a Facebook app) and has a 3-4 week standby battery life.
> Also, I have no fucking idea when you say that "they don't make phones like that anymore", since Nokia still makes the 3310.
As others have mentioned, most of the phones that do fit the criteria of a modern dumb phone don't work on Verizon. I had plans to buy the 3310 if they ever released a 4g version.
> Sounds like you aren't the target market either, since you want a phone that only does phone calls, text messages and Facebook Messenger, the latter of which the Light Phone does not do
I would happily go without Facebook Messenger, but since my phone supports it, it's a convenient thing to have access to. But you are right, I am probably not the target market for this phone.
I like the concept, looks like the Pebble of phones. But there's something that bus me. Given that it's "designed to be used as little as possible" I don't understand why the price tag is 350$. There are other phones with the same functions that are way cheaper. The worst android phone you can get is at least 200$ less than this.
I have one of the new models, it's pretty cool. I backed the kickstarter so I got it cheaper than its listing price. If you find the concept interesting and don't mind spending the money it's a good option. If you find the concept interesting and do mind spending the money I'd recommend a 7-11 burner or prepaid phone
I would love to have a phone like this, but with Whatsapp.
People I communicate with don’t use their phone/sms functions anymore. It has all moved to Whatsapp.
When my iPhone broke down, and I had to wait for it to be repaired, that was the only functionality I really needed (and maybe Google Maps) but it more or less stopped there.
I own one of these, and someday when it finally works with my wireless carrier I might find out if it's as nice as they say. Standby time appears to be ~3 days with no use, but I have not measured it rigorously. It does have wifi and bluetooth sonic suppose they could add hotspot capability.
That's not great, specially if you're not connecting it to the cell network.
We had a Nexus 4, IIRC, for our on call sysadmins, that would be always connected to the network but mostly sleeping, as it only was waiting for push notifications. It lasted around 4 or 5 days without charging! No software installed except for Pushover, of course.
If I were going for a less is more phone, I would be much happier with a traditional "flip" or basic-functionality physical button phone. This will just be frustrating to use, because it sort of offers what you need, but with a cramped interface and likely painful interface obstacles.
This isn't much in terms of value or functionality. You can buy a low end iPhone and just not install any apps and get more functionality and utility. I guess if you are on the road and need multi-week battery life??? Even then, it's easy enough to plug into your car outlet.
I like the idea. However, am I the only person who haven’t used an actual phone for years and is relying mostly on internet messaging services? So we should get an e-ink phone with only messenger apps installed and simplified UI to switch between them.
"It looks like a new thermostat." - my girlfriend when I showed it to her.
I'm the perfect customer for this phone (had a Nokia 3310 3g recently) but this is perhaps a little too minimal for even me. Still looking for a replacement for my iPhone SE someday.
That is a nice take on digital minimalism, but in my opinion you could also just delete most of the attention-sink-apps and enable black-and-white-screen on the smart phone you're currently using, instead of buying yet another device.
The use case for this is people who want to take it to a social occasion and show it off, while using a regular phone with email, music, podcasts, maps, uber, and social media for most of their daily lives.
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine.
Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
Your comment seems insightful to me. Not sure if you’re being down voted.
I agree there’s definitely some virtue signaling by having a high-cost secondary device like this. There’s chatter upthread with a comparison to other forms of virtue signaling that some people do.
I would love a dumb phone, except then I lose my ability to make encrypted calls and texts. Can't stand uncle sam being able to read anything I text my wife at any time of the day.
so, if this runs android: how about extracting the launcher and putting it on a 40USD Android Go device... Just kidding ;).
But really: if you buy aforementioned device, don't sign into google play, get your apps from f-droid, enable b/w-mode and disable the browser you've got yourself another light phone for 40USD+1h of your net income.
6 months ago I considered going full dumbphone. The best option was an unlocked jiophone 2 with KaiOS. Unfortunately, spotify has not been ported over yet and the OS is not as polished as I'd like.
I settled with Samsung's mid range line released this year. The Galaxy a20, a30 and a50 are great value for the price when rooted and stripped of all the bloatware.
You want a dumb phone but you want Spotify? Somebody else wants a dumb phone but they want YouTube. Somebody else wants a dumb phone but they want candy crush.
Congratulations. This is why dumb phones don’t exist. Nobody actually wants them.
Smartphones barely beat the feature phone market share in 2013. That is not too long ago. Q1 2019 saw a 40% market share with high adoptions in India, Africa and Latin America. This is because in developing countries, data is expensive.
I believe you know better than the multiple investors putting 80m into KaiOS to enable whatsapp, facebook messenger and hopefully spotify on features phones.
Agreed. Sadly the latency on eInk is still way too high. Smooth animations, scrolling and transitions are a large part of what makes touch screen based smart phones so easy to use and compelling. There are, perhaps, alternatives to the design patterns used for touch screens, but the light phone does not really do much in this area.
Smartphones are popular because people want to do the things that they enable. You probably need to live in some sort of a niche social circle in order to justify $350 just to be able to tell people how your minimalist phone is not able to browse the Internet.
If you just wanted to have a basic phone that doesn't do a lot of things, you could buy a Nokia 3310 for $60. You just don't get to brag about your disconnected way of living since the Nokia 3310 can actually do those things.