> I would specifically not consider "affirmative action" to be a form of racism [...] The specific reason I wouldn't consider it a form of racism is that I think racism implies animosity/hatred and not just discrimination. [...] the overwhelming majority of proponents of AA over time have certainly been genuine in their intentions to reduce suffering.
Agreed. Whatever differences of opinion we might have, this was well said, and I agree with you there.
The last part of your comment seems like it switches back to calling affirmative action racist implicitly though? Or, maybe I can't tell. I don't really understand the distinction you're making between positive discrimination and affirmative action.
I would totally agree that hateful discrimination is a bad thing, but from the top of the thread down, all we've been talking about is affirmative action, as far as I can tell, and nothing else. When @manfredo said "such a target is effectively impossible without discrimination", by "discrimination", he means affirmative action, right?
> You promote equality by promoting education, prosperity, and western/judeo-christian values.
Yes, true! And... this is exactly why some colleges have prioritized making sure they admit a few extra people from minority groups known to be suffering from discrimination, right?
> most people (including me) who are "proponents of fixing the problem" will naturally disagree with the idea that racism can solve the problem
Except nobody proposed racism as the solution in the animous/hateful sense. People proposed affirmative action as the solution.
> As previously mentioned AA has probably not had a net positive impact even if it was well-intentioned.
It sounds like you're hinting at the mismatch theory here and elsewhere... which is a common criticism, and it has been debated and studied at some length. Might be worth looking up some of the results.
Since AA has been used a lot, I'm not clear on why you're saying that racial tension and opportunity has improved dramatically, but that AA had nothing to do with it? Why are you sure that AA isn't the reason things are now better?
I guess if I have a single point it's that framing affirmative action as discrimination isn't clear thinking. It sounds like that's not what you're talking about, but this is what I jumped into the fray to say. The argument used above, not by you, is trying to suggest and imply there's a hypocrisy to taking any action to prevent cultural discrimination because the action is also discriminatory. That's true only in a technical sense, but is only FUD that confuses the issue. The goal is what's important, and the goal is equality of opportunity and removal of all animous/hateful behavior. Taking actions to meet that goal have worked in the past and will continue to.
Agreed. Whatever differences of opinion we might have, this was well said, and I agree with you there.
The last part of your comment seems like it switches back to calling affirmative action racist implicitly though? Or, maybe I can't tell. I don't really understand the distinction you're making between positive discrimination and affirmative action.
I would totally agree that hateful discrimination is a bad thing, but from the top of the thread down, all we've been talking about is affirmative action, as far as I can tell, and nothing else. When @manfredo said "such a target is effectively impossible without discrimination", by "discrimination", he means affirmative action, right?
> You promote equality by promoting education, prosperity, and western/judeo-christian values.
Yes, true! And... this is exactly why some colleges have prioritized making sure they admit a few extra people from minority groups known to be suffering from discrimination, right?
> most people (including me) who are "proponents of fixing the problem" will naturally disagree with the idea that racism can solve the problem
Except nobody proposed racism as the solution in the animous/hateful sense. People proposed affirmative action as the solution.
> As previously mentioned AA has probably not had a net positive impact even if it was well-intentioned.
It sounds like you're hinting at the mismatch theory here and elsewhere... which is a common criticism, and it has been debated and studied at some length. Might be worth looking up some of the results.
Since AA has been used a lot, I'm not clear on why you're saying that racial tension and opportunity has improved dramatically, but that AA had nothing to do with it? Why are you sure that AA isn't the reason things are now better?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Mismatching
This article demonstrates some of the positive effects of AA, and also some of the negative effects of banning AA:
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/18/07/case-affirmative-a...
I guess if I have a single point it's that framing affirmative action as discrimination isn't clear thinking. It sounds like that's not what you're talking about, but this is what I jumped into the fray to say. The argument used above, not by you, is trying to suggest and imply there's a hypocrisy to taking any action to prevent cultural discrimination because the action is also discriminatory. That's true only in a technical sense, but is only FUD that confuses the issue. The goal is what's important, and the goal is equality of opportunity and removal of all animous/hateful behavior. Taking actions to meet that goal have worked in the past and will continue to.