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Every company becomes a "traditional" company because only traditional companies have survived. If alternative structures worked well then we would've seen them by now.

Also I'm willing to be that a startup's lack of bureaucracy and momentum lets it experiment and move faster rather than just a carefree internal attitude. I've been in midsize companies on both sides of the free-culture spectrum and have never noticed any major difference in talent or capabilities.




> If alternative structures worked well then we would've seen them by now

Well let’s not go this far. Human civilization has existed for a tiny portion of time, modern civilization even less so. There’s PLENTY of time for better structures to be discovered.


Within current historical and cultural context, legal and technology frameworks etc the dataset is big enough to give some confidence that better structures won’t be found tomorrow or in the next 5 years.


Somebody probably said that just before an innovation is made. Many times.


For every time someone said it and was wrong, I bet there were a hundred times someone said it and was right.


Come on, this isn’t a pissing contest. You can both sit down and relax without arguing through such subjective and unsubstantiated opinions.


It's not a pissing contest; it's a misunderstanding of giving equal weight to two incredibly different probabilities. When Fox News says it's important to have a discussion about climate change and give 50% time to those for and against it, they are conveniently ignoring that 98% of scientists believe in climate change and 2% don't. But they are essentially saying both viewpoints are equally important, even though one is widely accepted to be true by the scientific community.

Yes, it's certainly possible that thinking different (or being contrarian, or stubborn, or creative, or whatever you want to call it) will lead to something great! It is also extremely unlikely unless you are in a brand new field such as quantum physics 100 years ago that whatever idea you had has already been considered by countless people before you and you are not special.

The reason most startups fail is more than just bad execution. It's because most startups weren't meant to exist because they just don't solve a problem people are willing to pay enough to make the company a profit. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try it if you really think you're onto something - but you should be aware the odds are wildly against you.


It's odd that when it comes to social issues, this site suddenly becomes conservative and doesn't even think progress is possible.


this site suddenly becomes conservative and doesn't even think progress is possible

Progress is possible. The thing is, that progress doesn't necessarily take the form that people wish it would take in their utopian fantasies. If we use history as a guide, we find that progress almost always takes a form with would have been unimaginable to past generations, if not at times even a little shocking to them. For example: The progress of agricultural technology, and its ability to feed people with unprecedented efficiency would have been considered wonderful and utopian by our forebears, until they started looking into some of the disturbing details.

A realistic, nuanced view of issues involving human factors and group psychology often incorporates elements of both the progressive and conservative mindsets. Both viewpoints are needed for effective, balanced government.


These platitudes are of course correct but quite irrelevant here.


Corporate structures are created by and serve human civilizations, so I think we've reached an optimal solution given our current societies.

We will need to wait for an evolution in human interaction before any new developments follow in corporate design.


This is an absurd statement and demonstrably false on several fronts.

1) large corporations that do exist are quite different,for example there are cooperative member-run organisations like John Lewis that have been very successful. Additionally, different countries, say compare Germany, US and Italy will have different corporate structure and culture.

2) There is a massive body of academically reviewed research that demonstrates that managers and executives are affected by fads that measurably reduce productivity (such as open plan offices) and often unwilling to change even when more efficient methods are presented

3) In corporate governance there is large mount of conflict of interest. Take Skyrocketing executive pay in the past 30 years, frequent bubles, tax evasion, large amount of fraud in financial sector. etc. Does that look like an optimal, balanced system?


Have you heard this economic joke before?

"Hey there is a $20 bill."

"No it's not. If it was really $20, someone would have picked it up already."


Actually, there's a TED talk where the implementers of remote, self-contained ATMs in India had to modify their procedures and deliberately rough up and age their paper money. Otherwise, people didn't believe that the crisp, perfect paper money that came out of those remote ATMs was real money.

If it was really ₹2000, someone would already have roughed it up already.


Look up WL Gore and Associates. They have thrived on a very different company power structure. Or maybe their founder was right and the power structure wasn't different (he thought official power structures were not where the power was held, and therefore dispensed with them in order for unofficial power structures to more easily come to the fore).

The problem is that you have to have some forms of effort in coordination and there aren't a while lot of models for that in actual practice. There are a few different topologies.

Where I work is becoming more of a traditional company in many ways. But I still look to Gore's insight that the real decisions are made around the water cooler and in the carpool van, and that is helpful.


>But I still look to Gore's insight that the real decisions are made around the water cooler and in the carpool van, and that is helpful.

So it assumes a very in-person culture for one thing.

Which is fine. But it basically excludes models based on people communicating in a more distributed way. And that probably strictly limits size and geographic diversity.

Nothing wrong with that. I can say I'm building a company in X location. I want everyone to come into the office and we're not looking to get big. That's fine. Among other things, you've described every local manufacturing, wtc. business.


I am not sure that's the assumption behind it, but I do agree these things are products of assumptions.

I have ideas for how I would organize a company if I had a blank slate. However, usually if you start getting investment, the discussions get more restricted.


Well, Google only changed when they reached two orders of magnitude the size of Goretex, so maybe the answer is that Gore just didn't get big enough.


Two orders of magnitude would put them at a million employees?


Sorry, I was thinking revenue but I don't see how revenue is the right number. One order of magnitude in employees it is.


I think the bigger issue is that Google is publicly traded.


I kinda of see what you are pointing at, but by definition every alternative structures we’ve seen survive long enough is now part of our tradition, so “traditional”.

I don’t see this as just a play on word, there is a wide variety of existing models that worked, and I’d also totally see a new model emerge and become “traditonal” when adopted widely enough. The world changes, companies should to.


or, it was never not a traditional company, and this was wishful magical thinking.

Pretty sure from day 1, they produced something and attempted to sell it for gains. Pretty traditional to me. Kind of the only way to do business.




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