I'm aware of that but nonetheless believe it's a step in the right direction and that they should be congratulated. I don't think this means anyone should give them an easier time as a result.
Countering radicalisation involves the use of both carrot and stick where services like Cloudflare and others are involved.
I agree that the racists on 8chan who are in favour of mass shootings are still racists on 8chan in favour of mass shootings. That needs to stop, and this alone doesn't achieve it. But society drawing boundaries about their behaviour is an obviously good step in my view. Companies can be part of that.
I don't get how it's desirable that this shouldn't be called out. Even if cloudflare is clearly looking at its bank balance when doing so.
If I understand correctly, you're making the argument that CloudFlare's move should be seen as part of a (hopefully) larger cultural move against racism and mass shootings. I am not sure how or even if their move would fit into that, but I can at least see that as plausible.
> I don't get how it's desirable that this shouldn't be called out.
That's not being suggested. It's possible to address the issue without outright cutting off 8chan. This approach is common of more extreme perspectives and does more to breed animosity than solve the problem. There are better ways to approach it, and cutting someone or a group off should be on the end list of possibilities.
> Even if cloudflare is clearly looking at its bank balance when doing so.
It's entirely possible they have two goals in mind, and that would be fine. I simply think it's unlikely because of how they've reacted in this case and the one with Daily Stormer.
I also detect a subtle hint of consequentialism here, but that could be my own reading into your post. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I simply can't get on border with the idea that the ends justifies the means. While the ends shouldn't be ignore, I don't think it should be seen as the sole arbitrator what determines ethical behavior.
That's more or less it. Silence can be as telling as its absence in cases like these, I think.
> That's not being suggested.
Fair enough, apologies for creating the impression if that happened. How should we address this problem without cutting off things like 8chan, though? I think that once people start advocating against the right of others to exist it's time for society to act. It makes sense that we should focus on the individuals actually contributing to these boards and de-radicalise them where possible. So doing, that reduces demand for things like 8chan. But that doesn't mean that 8chan itself isn't inherently problematic.
To be clear, this is not to say that message boards are all inherently problematic and we need to think before acting. Insofar as you urge caution on this in general, I agree. 8Chan has gone out of its way to eliminate any grey area on this subject, though. The behaviour of its administrators towards law enforcement in the aftermath of the Christchurch attack isn't even that unusual for them.
> I simply think it's unlikely
Totally, lol. I think that's a fair conclusion to draw. I just don't want it to overshadow what I think is a positive action.
> consequentialism
All I'm saying is that if violent radicalism is the enemy of a coherent society that respects everyone's right to exist (which these guys pretty clearly say), society should be prepared to do something to protect itself. And that means shutting down the services that recruit new gunmen, because they're a part of this. The ends don't justify the means, the actions of 8chan participants do.
Edit: Thanks so much for taking the time to write all that, by the way. One of the main reasons I come to this place is for people willing to walk through their arguments like this.
> How should we address this problem without cutting off things like 8chan, though?
We need to address root causes rather than symptoms.
Radicalization is often the result of in-group/out-group thinking[0]. What causes a person to develop a strong affinity for a particular group? What causes them to feel attack by those outside of the group? When we can answer these questions and others like it, we can start to cut off the problem at the source rather than playing a game of whack-a-mole. (And I fear that game of whack-a-mole because I fear that it may cause great harm to our long-term freedoms.)
I think a good start is fixing our political discourse. It's not radical ideas that are the problem. It's how we interact. It's how we address one another. It's not limited to "the left" or "the right." It's everywhere. We attack groups and people rather than addressing ideas.
In fact, I am first on the list of people who need to change. I started this whole thread by taking an unfair swipe at CloudFlare.
When we change our political discourse, those who value their identity with a particular group will feel less attacked and be less prone to radicalization.
This can be applied to CloudFlare/8chan in how CloudFlare went about it. CloudFlare dumping 8chan so quickly, arbitrarily, and without appeal will likely be seen as an attack on the in-group. This could be mitigated by reaching out to the 8chan leadership first. While CloudFlare might have cut them off in the end, at least there'd be a track record of making an effort to bridge their differences. And I think that would help reduce the impact this action would have.
If they wanted to be virtuous, they'd start working with groups to solve the problem--counteracting radicalization.