Seconded. I still can't tell apart the first a's in Ratte vs Rathaus, and Germans assure me they're different and the difference breaks any attempts to make puns based on the two (Rathaus=city hall, but to my ear feels like Ratte-house/haus).
As a German I can assure you that both "a" in Ratte and Rathaus sound the same. The "a" in Rathaus is just spoken a bit longer and the following "t" is hardly pronounced, whereas the "a" in Ratte is spoken very short and the "t" is pronounced strongly. I hope that helps.
I.e., they have the same quality but different quantity, and German does distinguish vowels by length, so they are different sounds in the sense that two words that otherwise sound the same can be distinguished by vowel length. "Ratten" and "raten", for a relavent example, are not homophones and nor are "Massen" and "Maßen" (German learners might be frustrated to learn that in fact these two are opposites in some contexts).
A few remarks on methodology in linguistics (the science).
A phone is a class of sounds (as opposed to their instances which are all unique) that can be reliably described by articulatory or acoustic features (phonetics) or by patterns found in EEG (I'm thinking of MIT's voiceless mic).
A phoneme is another type of "sound" class used in linguistics and it is arguably the more important: phonemes, as studied in the context of a particular language, is the finite set of sounds (a few dozens at most) from which you build different words in that language. Phonemes always come in pairs, since they are defined as the minimal distinctive linguistic unit that can yield a difference in meaning.
Substitute /p/ with /f/ in/fear/ and you get /pear/, i.e. another word, a difference in meaning --> thus /p/ and /f/ are phonemes.
But substitute /r/ with /rrrrr/ in /Braveheart/ and you get the same word but with a scottish accent. These do not form a phonemic pair but allophonic variations of the same phoneme (here according to different geographic areas but they can also vary according to age, social status, gender, etc ...)
The two vowel lengths sound too different to me (native speaker) for this to really work. The difference is the difference between aː vs a in IPA. I'm struggling to find a similar vowel length example in English and Wikipedia only has examples with an Australian accent. :)
Yeah, it doesn't really exist in English. I'd even argue that the Australian pronunciation doesn't change the vowel length as much as it adds a chain shift [1] (similar to the Canadian/Algonquin "ou" pronunciation).
It's one of the most difficult things to pick up when learning Japanese as well. There are lots of words that are basically homophones except for vowel length and tone. To an English speaker they tend to sound identical, but to a Japanese speaker if you get it wrong the result is unintelligible. For example "地図" (in romaji: chizu and pronounce cheezu with a short "ee") is "map" and "チーズ" (in romaji: chiizu and pronounced cheezu with a long "ee") is "cheese" (though they have the same tones... I'm struggling to think of an example with different tones as well as vowel length).
The thing that helped me the most for this was singing songs. Once you understand that there is a necessary rhythm to the words, it makes it much easier to use that rhythm in speaking. Or at least it did for me -- YMMV.
Even if it's not really a vowel length change in Australian English, I'm pretty confident it is in South African English (as spoken by me and many others). Ferry/fairy are distinguished by vowel length only.
This one is interesting to me because I can hear (and speak) the difference but it's something I would have never thought of on my own. I think, that the difference here isn't in the vowel `-a-` but more on how the first syllable `rat-(/ratt-)` is stressed in Ratte vs Rathaus.
Bare in mind I'm not a Linguist, but my take on this is that the word Ratte just flows out of my mouth under one breath. The second syllable is is made without needing to "stop my voice" if that makes sense… I just move my tongue up to the top of my mouth to make a small `-t-` sound. Ratte is pronounced very quick.
Rathaus, on the other hand, there is a something like a full stop (but not really a full and total silence) in between `Rat-` and `-Haus`. And for whatever reason, it seems like I pronounce the `-a-` in Rathaus longer than I do in Ratte.
Well, by my native language's customs (Finnish), they'd be spelled "Ratte" and "Raathaus", which maybe makes the difference clearer. Same wovel sound, different length.
By 'non-English speaker' do you mean 'someone with English as a second language', 'someone not speaking English', or 'someone not from England'?
I'm a non-native English speaker, and certainly has no problem distinguishing between your examples; in fact I use such words as illustration when explaining subtleties of Danish pronunciation to anglophones.
And I absolutely cringe whenever '2' is used for 'to', og '4' for 'for'. Just stop it, they sound nothing alike.
And I absolutely cringe whenever '2' is used for 'to', og '4' for 'for'. Just stop it, they sound nothing alike.
I'm a native english speaker, and I pronounce those the same.
Two = to = too, but "tool" sometimes nearly has 2 "o" sounds, depending. For = four, and the sound in "four" is not the same as in "foul", which is two sounds.
When I was a kid I found it confusing people would confuse there, their and they're – or rather being taught that people confuse them. I'm not sure whether it was due to me being more literate than verbal or not but "they're" at least has always been distinct to me. Maybe it's due to accent changes. I used to pronounce bull and ball the same.
