Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I meet a lot of tourists on a daily basis, and I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time.

I can't imagine how much worse it is for people that are forced to travel there for business.

If the United States is trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world it is definitely succeeding.

As a side note, I have not spoken to a tourist from the US on the island where I live in several months. However there is a literal flood of French, German, Chinese, Dutch, Singaporean, etc. Last night I had dinner with an Uzbek and Tanzanian couple.

Where are you guys?




They only have 5-10 days vacation a year on average. Give them a break already!


> They only have 5-10 days vacation a year on average.

Your figures are off by a large margin (70% to 240%). The average American worker took 17 days of vacation time in 2017.

For paid vacation time - the more important item - it depends heavily on experience and company size.

"In 2017, the average worker with five years of experience at a company was given 15 days of paid vacation and the average worker with 20 years of experience was given 20 paid vacation days."

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 76 percent of private industry workers ... After one year of employment, these workers were granted 10 days of paid vacation, on average."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/heres-how-many-paid-vacation...


That little holiday time still baffles me. I've taken 15 days off this year and we're barely nearing mid-summer. That's not including the 8 bank holidays we get. I've still got another 10 to use before the years end, not including days in lieu from working overtime, and this is only my first year of employment. I know that the US isn't great for workers rights, but regardless that's incredibly shocking to me.

If I was expected to work 50 weeks in a 52 week year I don't think I'd ever get a full-time career. I'd probably run off and become a surf bum selling loom bands on the beach.


"run off to become a surf bum"

You just summarized my career path after working as a software engineer for 10 years in SV.


15 days is still a laughable situation compared to all of western Europe.


If they take sick days do they come out of vacation time?


Most of the time yes.


Then they are not vacation!


They brought it upon themselves. Americans resist every attempt that I have seen to improve working conditions.

It was such a big issue for me that it motivated me to leave the SV tech community and the US altogether. I don't see myself ever living there again.


<sarcasm>Proper vacation time? That's communism!</sarcasm>

edit: added sarcasm tags


Have you seen how many vacation days most americans get? It’s not a lot and most of it goes towards visiting family around the major holidays.


I honestly think that is one of the primary factors.

That and how health care is tied to employment.

When Europeans change jobs they tend to go on vacation for a while, Americans immediately scramble for a new job out of fear of getting sick.


> Americans immediately scramble for a new job out of fear of getting sick.

Or in fear of paying a tax penalty unless they buy some substandard marketplace plan (yes, I know the marketplace plans were sabotaged for political reasons in some cases, but that doesn't change the result)


> Starting with the 2019 plan year (for which you’ll file taxes in April 2020), the Shared Responsibility Payment no longer applies.

https://www.healthcare.gov/fees/fee-for-not-being-covered/

Of course this is new, so fears in recent history were definitely real.


Also add in that household income is (fairly) stagnant[0] but costs are increasing.

Anecdotally the only people I know that visit other countries either are: not from the US; come from a wealthy family; or have little money and that's just what they spend their money on. I know very few middle class people that visit other countries (outside of work related tasks). The excuse is always "I can't afford it." For me, that's my excuse. But that's not only money but time (which is correlated). I mean a round trip from my location to London is about $2.5k (similar cost for anywhere in Europe, Japan, or New Zealand). If I had a couple grand to drop on a vacation I'd do it. Though I'll say that I can get a round trip to Malaysia for under $2k, which is more reasonable (especially considering expenditures while there are less).

[0] https://www.advisorperspectives.com/images/content_image/dat...


I believe that that graph is adjusted for Urban CPI so so increased costs would be taken into account. It's also a bit difficult to see the change in median household income due to the scale so here's the federal reserve's version where it is easier to see[1]. The increase in real median household income has been significant since the mid 80s. There are plenty of factors in play but I don't really think stagnant wages relative to other countries are to blame for fewer American tourists. Honestly, I just don't know many people in the U.S. who would think to vacation to Malaysia. The Caribbean is a lot closer and less expensive to travel to.

[1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N


"I can't afford it" is and empty excuse.

My flight from NY to KL a few months ago was cheaper than my flight from Orlando to NY.

The cost of living here is significantly less than the US. I would conservatively say 50%.


What island are you on?


A Malaysian island in the South China Sea.


To be honest - that's sort of off the beaten path (speaking for a lot of Americans).

From the SE asian island-ish countries, I can think the ordering of "who goes where" would look something like this - Thailand, Bali, Vietnam, Phillippines, Malaysia - just based on country marketing + anecdotal conversations alone.

This is coming from someone who was nomad-ing around for 2 1/2 years too.


My flight from New York to KL cost less than my flight from Orlando to NY.

Most Malaysians also speak English very well, especially compared to the rest of SE Asia.

I have spoken to Americans back home who couldn't even point out Malaysia on a map, and even more who just write it off as a "Muslim country" despite it being secular and very diverse.

I would say it has less to do with accessibility, and more to do with Americans being skittish travelers who have been brainwashed into thinking that any country with a couple Muslims is a scary place.


I didn't say anything about accessibility.

I said it has to do with how the country presents itself. If you polled people going to Asia - you'd see a huge # of them would be going to Thailand or Bali (80/20) - likely due to them being portrayed in the media quite a bit. Indonesia is also significantly Muslim.

You seem to be looking for a fight where there isn't one. Maybe you should reconsider your assumptions about Americans.


I am Mexican American, its not an assumption when you lived in the country for most of your life.

I'm not looking for a fight, I am just genuinely interested in why Americans are an under represented group of travelers in the country where I currently live and work.

So far the majority of the replies that attempted to give a reason included the fact that it is a Muslim country, despite that being as true as America being a Christian country.


  couldn't even point out Malaysia on a map, and even more who just write it off as a "Muslim country" 
I'd be very interested in meeting this population that "couldn't even point out Malaysia on a map" but know that it is majority Muslim.


You can thank the American education system and media for that.


That's weird. I met an unusually high number of US people in Kuala Lumpur.


Mileage may vary I suppose, but I am in KL right now to see my doctor and have been staying at a friend's hostel for the past week in a very touristic area.

I have been socializing quite a bit and have not met a single American the entire week.


I've been rather to the expensive places. Maybe that's where your fellow Americans are hiding?


That seems like a likely explanation, although the island where I dive attracts very affluent tourists and there are effectively no Americans there either.

Were most of the people you met tourists or living in Malaysia?


Tioman?


Bingo, have you been?


I've been. Last time I thought I'd pop in from Singapore I found they'd discontinued the flights there which can't help with US tourists who don't want to schlep about with busses and boats.


They discontinued flights because of the environmental impact it was having on the island.

The big resort on the island (Berjaya) wanted to build a bigger airport a few years ago and the locals flat out said no.

Tioman is entirely owned by the local population and they have the first and last say on what gets developed there.

So far they are doing a great job, Tioman has the only growing reef in Malaysia and is seeing a lot of rare wildlife returning year after year.

The bus from Singapore takes a few hours, and the ferry about the same. We get more than enough tourist who are willing to make the trip.


>> "I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time."

US had the 3rd largest number of tourists in the world in 2017 (after France and Spain). [1]

Though YOY is trending down in Trump years.

[1] https://www.e-unwto.org/doi/pdf/10.18111/9789284419876


I did not see a breakdown by age demographic in that report.

The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US.

Maybe that will change once they have kids who want to go see Harry Potter World in Orlando, but as it stands I think most of my customers would rather visit North Korea than the US.


> The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US

I’m a millennial with lots of international millennial friends. Nobody likes these measures. But getting into most countries is no walk in the park. As much as I hate to admit this, the pressure to end these policies will never come from tourists.


Depends on where you are coming from.

Most of the Europeans that come through have the financial means and strong enough passports to go pretty much anywhere they please. Same goes for most Japanese and Chinese.

My Arab customers however have the money, but getting a visa is a near impossibility.


>> "have the financial means and strong enough passports to go pretty much anywhere they please. Same goes for most Japanese and Chinese"

Chinese passport is one of the worst in the world as far as travel goes. [1][2]

[1] https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Chinese_...


That doesn't seem to prevent millions of them from traveling every year.


It's a country with over a billion people, so it's possible.


If you have money and a clean background you can go anywhere you want (with some exceptions), regardless of your passport. There are companies you can contact who will handle the entire visa process for you.


This is unfortunately not true for most people coming from the Arab world.


EU travelers should understand - because the EU screens social media as part of visa applications too.


To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing.



I don't think it is any one issue for them, rather more like "all of the above".


> The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US.

You could say the same about American millenials. We aren't thrilled to be here either - if we all had dual citizenship with another first-world nation, I'd bet 70% of us would have left the country.

I doubt we've ever had an economy that was as strong (or at least, looked so good on paper), while people had such a negative opinion of what the future holds. Trump and the Senate Republicans (and their supporters) are destroying this nation.


You don't need dual citizenship to leave, it didn't stop me.

America has been on a bad path for decades, I left long before Trump was even in the picture.


The YOY growth rates of the top 10 destinations are between max +24.1% (Turkey) and min 0.7% (USA).


I would think many of those visits are for business or seeing family. Plus the fact that many of the tourists come from countries in the Visa Waiver Program [1]. An ESTA is much less involved than a B1/B2 visa application.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_the_United_States#V...


Where are you guys?

I typically travel to places where I know someone — so given that most of the Malaysians I know have moved elsewhere (or are trying to) I'm less inclined to visit. The politics, health care, and to some extent personal safety and syariah law create some resistance too.


Politics - Malaysia has a healthier democracy than the United States and is currently undergoing massive anti corruption reforms.

Healthcare - I receive better and more affordable healthcare here than I ever did in the US. Visiting a DR costs $10 out of pocket and most medications are in the $5-$20 range. I recently underwent extensive hyperbaric therapy and it cost me less than $200. The same treatment in the US would have been near $10000. I also have insurance, but I am yet to actually need to dip into it.

Personal Safety - I feel safer wandering around KL at night than I ever did LA or SF. On the island where I live I don't even have a lock on my door.

Sharia Law - Malaysia is a secular society. In areas where Sharia law is in effect it only applies to Muslims, and even then it can be appealed in the courts. Malaysia is a very mixed society that has learned to respect all races and religions, wish I could say the same for the US.

Its sad because you are eliminating one of the travel gems of the world based on false assumptions.


Politics - Malaysia has a healthier democracy than the United States and is currently undergoing massive anti corruption reforms.

Which is great, but it wasn't that long ago that the opposition leader was thrown into jail on trumped up sodomy charges.

Healthcare

The cost of care is lower but so is the quality was what I've had a few Malaysian friends tell me.

Personal Safety - I feel safer wandering around KL at night than I ever did LA or SF. On the island where I live I don't even have a lock on my door.

Most places feel safer than San Francisco to me, that's not much of a challenge. The US State Dept listed a warning due to an increased risk of kidnapping, and they also list these gems:

- Taxi drivers in downtown Kuala Lumpur have perpetrated violent crimes against foreign tourists and local residents

- Criminals also target motorists stuck in traffic or stopped at a light with smash and grab robberies.

When I was planning a trip to Penang and KL a few years back the advice given was to have my friend pick me up instead of taking a taxi -- due to her concerns for my safety.

Malaysia is a very mixed society that has learned to respect all races and religions

Well that's patently false. How many non-Muslim Malays do you know? Hint: none because syariah law prevents them from leaving Islam and the so-called secular law cowtows to Islam. How about race based university admissions (and a variety of other codified race based privileges)?


"opposition leader was thrown into jail on trumped up sodomy charges."

He was pardoned in 2018 and the current ruling party won on a platform of removing this kind of corruption and is so far very well received.

"cost of care is lower but so is the quality was what I've had a few Malaysian friends tell me."

False. All the major cities in Malaysia have excellent hospitals, and there is nationwide availability to General practitioners who are more than qualified. I have had 2 elective surgeries in Malaysia and could not be happier with the results.

" I was planning a trip to Penang and KL a few years back the advice given was to have my friend pick me up instead of taking a taxi -- due to her concerns for my safety."

There is always Grab if you are that paranoid, but I have never heard of anyone having issues like this. Just the other day I hailed a cab and the driver told me it would actually be cheaper and easier for me to take the train to my destination and gave me instructions on how to get to the nearest station.

"Well that's patently false. How many non-Muslim Malays do you know? Hint: none because syariah law prevents them from leaving Islam and the so-called secular law cowtows to Islam. How about race based university admissions (and a variety of other codified race based privileges)?"

This one actually made my friends and I laugh when I read it out loud during our lunch. Malaysia is home to ethnic Chinese, Indian, Indonesian, and native groups. Just at my table there are three non Muslim Malay and two muslims.

I say this at risk of angering the mods, but you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.




Consider applying for YC's Spring batch! Applications are open till Feb 11.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: