One point that I'm missing, is that the government of China can legally force any of their companies to start spying. And there would be no way that we would know.
Then often the argument becomes: But the US are already spying on us, so it's not too bad. Which is fair, but in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China.
So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you: The US or China? For me as a European, this is definitely the former.
>in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China.
If the government really wants you they'll take you. And no amount of thoughts, prayers or picketing will free you.
We've seen examples of that in our generation, the last 20 years only when we've had a massive information network available. Imagine all the nameless poor sods who have disappeared before the internet.
I'm not naive about the limitations of the freedoms that are afforded to a citizen by the US government, or my government for that matter. We should have more freedoms and say into our government, and it should be more fair.
But here's the main point: It's a hell of a lot better than in China. Freedom and checks and balances are always on a spectrum. You're arguing that because there are limitations to your freedom, you might as well be totally in chains.
How do you measure that? I mean what are you comparing? Media reporting? In my opinion you shouldn't even be able to trust internet media reporting on this matter.
For example I think most of us saw the viral video a few weeks ago of a young chinese woman being taken from her apartment. She had left her cellphone recording while police detained her for no apparent reason.
But if we take that as an example. What do we really know? All we really know is what is shown in that video.
It's hard for the video to lie.
Other than that we have no idea who released the video online or made sure it was spread onto western social media. Because as we do know, most of Asia are living in a bubble with their own social media and search engines.
So with that in mind, an organisation could cherry pick information from such social media to spread on western media in order to manufacture consent.
Imagine the roles reverse. A video of a young black male being detained for no reason, have dogs bite him, have officers beat him, released onto asian social media sites with no real context.
I personally think it's much easier to assume that people are people in all parts of the world. Power corrupts in every country. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of religion, skin tone or cultural background. We're not that different.
This is not a hypothetical question at all. Denmark is certainly asking this question, with the understanding that currently the US can tap anything they want in our communications infrastructure, and buying 5G from Huawei would instead give that power to the Chinese.
I think it is fortunate that Danish political consensus is converging toward avoiding Huawei infrastructure. American politicians might be as bad as Chinese leaders, but the former are sometimes held accountable, however meekly.
What American company provides 5G carrier capabilities currently? I can’t think of any the only two that come in mind that aren’t Chinese are Alcatel-Nokia-Siemens-Lucent or w/e they are called now and Ericsson.
For the most part the US can compromise networks without needing to control the companies that provide the equipment they’ll just compromise the operator and the supply chain.
For me, as an ex-Australian who has lived in America and Europe, I don't trust either China or America with regards to their spying. Both countries have a long line of human rights violations in their history, and neither has shown a particular improvement in the last few decades.
The USA has committed untold strife in the world. It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators, it has declared war on innocent nations and racked up hundreds of thousands of innocent victims in its rush to war glory. It has spent more on war in the last decade than any other nation, by far, while its people suffer under one of the most tyrannical, terrible health systems the modern world has constructed.
China has concentration camps. America has a thousand top-secret military prisons scattered around the globe.
The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, and in light of the real evidence on the ground, a terribly ignorant point of view. I mean, we may be able to say, in all fairness, that there is a great chance that Huawei MAY spy for the Chinese government - but we can say for certainty that every single ISP in the USA HAS spied for the US Government, and we have no way to be sure it isn't still happening given the immense resources poured into making us look the other way as a civil society.
There's a massive difference between foreign country spying on you and your own democratically elected government spying on you.
Before you try to call US not democratic - don't. It is democratic. Especially when you compare to China. Of course, there's no perfect democracy and we can always work for more.
The grandparent don't say anywhere that the US is not democratic, it says that " It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators" that it's empirically truth.
The idea that, in the international arena, and for not USA citizens, the USA is preferable to China is, at least, naive and, probably, dangerous. As a neither USA nor Chinese citizen, none of those two have my best interest at heart.
Not even my own country have my best interest at heart frequently, but at least I have some "checks and balances" there.
My checks and balances: a well-worn passport, pay the taxes and obey local laws, and do everything possible to attain a sail-boat existence, if if a land-lubber.
And, eventually, get that sail boat.
Borders are thin and invisible. Don't be stopped by them.
Why is it better to be spied upon by a “democratic” country? Especially if that country has been known to start a dozen wars and topple numerous regimes in the last decade or so?
Coming from eastern europe and seeing what happened in Ukraine, I see trigger-happiness of US as an advantage.
If Russia comes banging at our doors, I don't trust Germany or France to do more than issue a stern letter. China? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give a fuck. US of A? That's our only bet TBH.
Because when the US started a civil war and ousted your leader to install a chocolate oligarch backed by militant nazi thugs it was purely for your benefit, right? Not in order to plunder the country.
The checks and balances in the US of A only exist for Americans. They don't exist when you're not an American and exist even less if you're not even in America.
Now Europe is being bitten by the fact that there are no major European companies left. Siemens network branch was bought by Nokia and then there's Ericsson.
I'm just not sure why the EU is not making using domestic hardware a prerequisite. Would keep technological know how in the EU and reduce dependency. Not to speak about security.
Yeah tell that to all the people that were interned without any legal recourse by American intelligence. As someone that is not from the USA or China I think we should worry more about USA than China as the records shows it is USA that has kidnapped people from their own countries or 3rd country rather than China.
Or you know, we could worry about both the US and China? I come from a third-world country where my own government is looking to screw me over. There is some consolation in at least getting to choose who screws me over.
Come on, the fact the Trump wasn’t able to achieve much of what he wanted (and even start those initiatives properly) confirms that. A country with less powerful social institutes would be in a worse shape.
Then often the argument becomes: But the US are already spying on us, so it's not too bad. Which is fair, but in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China.
So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you: The US or China? For me as a European, this is definitely the former.