> The mechanisms by which something changes state can be determined by science.
How do you know that? Couldn't there be mechanisms by which something changes state that can not be determined by science? How do you know there aren't?
And in the particular case: How did you determine that the mechanism by which the universe changes state can not be determined by science?
> There isn't a fundamental difference between those two statements. I used the word "universe" as a catch-all. You could substitute "universe" for just about anything else, if not all things, physical.
So, electrons are non-physical after all, then? I assume you agree that the electric field is physical? The potential to change the electric field is not observable, but it exists, therefore, it is non-physical? (I am paraphrasing, obviously, but I think that is roughly your argument applied to electrons?)
Also, it seems problematic that you are refering to "physical" here, in what for all intents and purposes is an attempt to define the distinction between the physical and the non-physical. And that doesn't seem to me to be a mere accident, but rather a symptom of the fact that you seem to build your argument on our current understanding of physics--when, really, the question is: What justifies our current understanding of physics? It is true that the electron is considered part of the physical world by physicists. But why is that? And what does that even mean? When you start with physics from a position where the existence of electrons has not been established yet, what were the steps to get from there to here?
> Yes... I explicitly stated this, albeit in different terms.
Well, possibly. But then, I asked for things that you would expect to be convincing. Stating that what you said isn't convincing still doesn't really make things convincing, does it?
> Absolutely not.
Exactly. So, why would you expect the same reason to be convincing when you use it?
> The mechanisms by which something changes state can be determined by science.
How do you know that? Couldn't there be mechanisms by which something changes state that can not be determined by science? How do you know there aren't?
And in the particular case: How did you determine that the mechanism by which the universe changes state can not be determined by science?
> There isn't a fundamental difference between those two statements. I used the word "universe" as a catch-all. You could substitute "universe" for just about anything else, if not all things, physical.
So, electrons are non-physical after all, then? I assume you agree that the electric field is physical? The potential to change the electric field is not observable, but it exists, therefore, it is non-physical? (I am paraphrasing, obviously, but I think that is roughly your argument applied to electrons?)
Also, it seems problematic that you are refering to "physical" here, in what for all intents and purposes is an attempt to define the distinction between the physical and the non-physical. And that doesn't seem to me to be a mere accident, but rather a symptom of the fact that you seem to build your argument on our current understanding of physics--when, really, the question is: What justifies our current understanding of physics? It is true that the electron is considered part of the physical world by physicists. But why is that? And what does that even mean? When you start with physics from a position where the existence of electrons has not been established yet, what were the steps to get from there to here?
> Yes... I explicitly stated this, albeit in different terms.
Well, possibly. But then, I asked for things that you would expect to be convincing. Stating that what you said isn't convincing still doesn't really make things convincing, does it?
> Absolutely not.
Exactly. So, why would you expect the same reason to be convincing when you use it?