Exactly as I propose in grandparent. Reread it if necessary.
they usually want to know about the work relation you had with the reference.
I will tell them that we are colleagues on-line. Although we have never met in real life, we participate in Hacker News together. Believe me, I know much more about lots of people here than many I know in real life. For example, I would heartily recommend patio11, kirubakaran, iamelgringo, or tptacek over some guy down the hall who I know nothing about except sports conversations at the coffee machine. It is 2010: in our industry, virtual relationships can easily carry as much weight as physical ones.
Just inventing something is dangerous and ethically questionable, recruiters or not.
There is nothing ethically questionable about my offer. I will tell the truth. I will also include this thread. Recruiters have created an artificial roadblock to keep people from working by protecting their turf. This is just a handy method to turn that roadblock into a speed bump. If they are required to collect professional references, this helps them satisfy their requirement.
I operate under the assumption that everyone is telling the truth until I find out that they aren't. Then I have nothing more to do with them. So, your CV and a phone interview should be more than enough for a recruiter to qualify you. It they can't (or won't), then one of two things must be true: either they are mining CVs or they are incompetent.
Then, what if the hiring company actually contacted you?
I fully expect them to and I will tell them the truth, including this thread. AFAIC, your CV, phone interview, and participation on Hacker News deserves at least a minimal amount of respect from hiring people. Requiring references prematurely is unnecessary and insulting.
I (obviously) feel very strongly about this and stand by my original offer to anyone here.
A few asides:
1. I never give references until after receiving a job offer (contingent upon acceptable references). If a company is incapable or unwilling to make a preliminary decision based upon the interaction between me and any number of their employees, then I don't want to work for them.
2. I have a great deal of respect for competent and professional recruiters. But then again, you're probably not reading this because you were able to do your jobs without references in the first place.
3. To recruiters who are mining CVs, representing jobs that don't exist, or misrepresenting jobs to protect your listings, please understand that I (and probably most of the competent professional programmers here) want nothing to do with you. Please become professional or just go away.
Thanks for your detailed response (and the original offer!).
I had understood your proposal just fine, and was wondering about the recruiters' side. I and surely most of us on HN agree with what you wrote on virtual relationships, fairly assessing a candidate based on the CV, and handling personal references with respect.
However, will such an HN reference pass the recruiter, and then the hiring person at the company? A technically clueless HR person won't be too impressed by "this guy on a web forum says my Hello World is fine". Again, I agree that in an ideal world, they would call the candidate and figure out his skills on their own, but they don't.
In any case, I'll bookmark your original post, one never knows :-)
What is the point of checking references only after providing an offer?
Is it an offer contingent on references? (Edit: re-reading your post, I see that is the case.) If so, that seems not much of an offer at all.
This is an unusual practice and I have never seen it in that sequence, but then again, I am more exposed to professional non-technical services, so perhaps things work differently.
I find good reference checking -- and it is hard to do it well -- is excellent to identify traits that are difficult to test for during interviews, such as timeliness and integrity.
Edit number two: I do understand however not providing references until the final stage, when only two or three candidates remain.
Exactly as I propose in grandparent. Reread it if necessary.
they usually want to know about the work relation you had with the reference.
I will tell them that we are colleagues on-line. Although we have never met in real life, we participate in Hacker News together. Believe me, I know much more about lots of people here than many I know in real life. For example, I would heartily recommend patio11, kirubakaran, iamelgringo, or tptacek over some guy down the hall who I know nothing about except sports conversations at the coffee machine. It is 2010: in our industry, virtual relationships can easily carry as much weight as physical ones.
Just inventing something is dangerous and ethically questionable, recruiters or not.
There is nothing ethically questionable about my offer. I will tell the truth. I will also include this thread. Recruiters have created an artificial roadblock to keep people from working by protecting their turf. This is just a handy method to turn that roadblock into a speed bump. If they are required to collect professional references, this helps them satisfy their requirement.
I operate under the assumption that everyone is telling the truth until I find out that they aren't. Then I have nothing more to do with them. So, your CV and a phone interview should be more than enough for a recruiter to qualify you. It they can't (or won't), then one of two things must be true: either they are mining CVs or they are incompetent.
Then, what if the hiring company actually contacted you?
I fully expect them to and I will tell them the truth, including this thread. AFAIC, your CV, phone interview, and participation on Hacker News deserves at least a minimal amount of respect from hiring people. Requiring references prematurely is unnecessary and insulting.
I (obviously) feel very strongly about this and stand by my original offer to anyone here.
A few asides:
1. I never give references until after receiving a job offer (contingent upon acceptable references). If a company is incapable or unwilling to make a preliminary decision based upon the interaction between me and any number of their employees, then I don't want to work for them.
2. I have a great deal of respect for competent and professional recruiters. But then again, you're probably not reading this because you were able to do your jobs without references in the first place.
3. To recruiters who are mining CVs, representing jobs that don't exist, or misrepresenting jobs to protect your listings, please understand that I (and probably most of the competent professional programmers here) want nothing to do with you. Please become professional or just go away.