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While it sounds very reasonable, friendly, and non-authoritarian, a big problem with an approach like this, without real teeth or rigidity, is that it is very easy to harass people out of a community while staying within its constraints, and provides very little recourse for those being harassed (who often are not in a position of power) to put on pressure for getting something done about it.

The approach taken largely ignores the discussion that's been going on about this topic, and sounds pretty naive, if not willfully passive.



The whole point of this is to not have teeth. It's not supposed to be used as a weapon.

Personally, I haven't contributed to (or not held my nose at) any open source project where contributors have enough free time to spend harassing other contributors rather than commit more code. Who has the time to be bothered, on either end of it? Maybe they're spending too much time in the politics of it rather than the work of it to begin with.


The current push for codes of conduct in software projects isn't about harassment per se. Realistically anyone can be harassed out of a community regardless of rules. The point of the rules is to change the norms such that behavior that would otherwise have been exclusionary or just off-putting is specifically called out and recognized as "wrong".

"This code is fucking garbage and you should be ashamed" may or may not be "harassement" according to the intent of the writer or interpretation of the reader. But it's still wrong and we don't want that.


What if the code was indeed garbage, and it cost a lot of time (super precious asset) and brain power (a precious asset) to evaluate and reject? Such a reaction would be understandable even if hurtful. No wonder people leaning towards the Asperger/autistic spectrum of brutal honesty would state that; such is their nature.

What would you propose for addressing it? Ghosting? Silent blacklisting? English-style "there is a minor hiccup with the code"? A compiled list of what is wrong with the code (taking another few hours to prepare)? Any realistic ideas?


> No wonder people leaning towards the Asperger/autistic spectrum of brutal honesty would state that; such is their nature.

Actually, it is not "their nature". The nature of people on the spectrum is to have difficulty understanding social conventions. Having a system whereby social conventions are explicitly spelled out in detail is likely to help people on the spectrum adhere to them, because they no longer have to be inferred.

People on the spectrum deserve understanding (like everyone else) when they break social norms or say hurtful things due to not understanding that they're doing anything wrong. When they know that what they're doing is not acceptable, they are as responsible as anyone else who knowingly acts like a jerk.

I'm also highly skeptical of the idea anyone outside of a tiny minority would be unaware that "garbage" is an intentionally insulting term, especially given that it is a metaphor. Even "completely fails to meet standards" is vastly better and more descriptive (outside of the emotional content of "garbage").


> I'm also highly skeptical of the idea anyone outside of a tiny minority would be unaware that "garbage" is an intentionally insulting term, especially given that it is a metaphor. Even "completely fails to meet standards" is vastly better and more descriptive (outside of the emotional content of "garbage").

For many on the spectrum (though certainly not all; it’s called a “spectrum” for a reason), this notion of “emotional content of <word>” is simply an alien concept! I know this is quite hard for a “neurotypical” person to truly accept (let alone empathize with), but it’s true: Which words are emotionally charged, and which aren’t, must be learned by rote memorization, and this can take a great deal of effort.

In this “neurotypical” world we live in, those of us on the spectrum must put a lot of effort into “acting neurotypical”, since “being yourself” just doesn’t fly when it means you can accidentally hurt others feelings (and we certainly don’t want that either).

Nobody is perfect though, and mistakes do happen. What’s unfortunate is that the kind of mistakes often made by people on the spectrum aren’t naturally tolerated or forgiven by most people, because the behavior is often seen as so far beyond the norm that “surely malice must be the only explanation”. Therefore, forgiveness and tolerance is often bypassed entirely.

Of course, I’m not trying to make excuses arguing that hurtful behavior should be tolerated; rather, I’m agreeing with the original point that we should help teach people how to behave well first, rather than dropping some kind of “ban hammer” on the first offense. Responding with the maximum penalty at the first offense is not only unfair, but creates a culture of fear and terror and anxiety, at least among those who aren’t the best at predicting what may or may not be seen as an offensive statement.


“Actually, it is not "their nature". The nature of people on the spectrum is to have difficulty understanding social conventions.”

Holy moly, please don’t tell me what I do and don’t have difficulty understanding. Even if you were a clinical psychologist, it’s a spectrum and throwing out what entire populations do or do not understand is so weird, I’m not sure what point it serves.

Even if I was the elected spokesperson of this population in the world, I’m not sure I’d have the authority to issue such a nebulous statement.


I apologise for the generalisation. That was too broadly and absolutely worded. But I would stand by the idea that "people on the spectrum are more likely to have difficulty intuitively learning social conventions".

Is that still a nebulous statement?


I honestly have long agreed with your premise, but I have to say I can't bring myself to agree with your whole statement. I see it more often each passing year, that someone who behaves a certain way is "charitably" accused of having some disorder, or "being on the spectrum." I do not accept this.

And you can do better than "this code is fucking garbage." Even "this code is poorly done, try harder" is much better. It is more polite, and the more times I see this discussion, the more I like the idea that you should just treat your colleagues like ladies and gentlemen, or whatever.

At a given point in my TDD learnings, I thought I invented a new term for a really powerful idea – "Shame-Driven Development" – turns out I was not the first person who named this idea.

My idea of "SDD" is basically that noticing a failing test will motivate you to fix your code, so it's imperative that we set up CI early in development and shine a light on those failing tests at every opportunity. My idea is not important, if you google the term, you'll see that it really is a bigger idea than that, and all of the top links are perhaps obviously not presenting it in a positive light.

You don't want "shame-driven development." Embarrassment is only a powerful motivator for the people you haven't used it on yet. Other people will seek to avoid being embarrassed, but the person you embarrass will only be left feeling bad.


I don't believe SDD would work for these reasons:

1) people that start a serious open source product must be self-assured and innately isolated from any external community/pressure in order to avoid distractions from their goal. Shame has likely 0 effect, or negative (i.e. the person/group doing the shaming would get banned from any future interaction). It takes a certain type of person that is likely "very thorny" to the outside world unless persuaded by desired qualities in other people that want to interact.

2) those projects often start as angry reactions to what is happening in the outside "meatspace" (corruption, vendor lock-in, "voluntary" censorship, you-can-buy-everyone, selling underwhelming/dangerous stuff for a lot of money etc.); doing things differently when they start working inevitably invokes feelings of superiority over people that "just don't get it"/"noobs" and it's difficult to resist temptation of showing off. Or external people are viewed as "conformists to old ways" that would prevent better things from happening in order not to disrupt current status quo they benefit from, hence interacting with them is not desirable (and arguably dangerous until project really makes it)

3) having to wade through a lot of new issues daily and cherry pick the ones that are worth examining is time consuming and tiring. After doing this for a while it likely leads to anger and telling off someone is a way to vent

4) popular free/open source projects that made it are often targeted by people trying to subvert them for their hidden agendas; any original developer intelligent enough can be at least disturbed if not outraged by that; harsh reactions following. "How would you punish those subverters?" is a better question than to penalize a developer that was easily provoked to an angry outburst by those poking at their weak areas (and that's often trivial with honest technical folks)

5) priority of creators is often getting things done as fast as they could; "unnecessary social talk" is often viewed as a waste of effort/time, and honestly it often is, unfortunately. If they decide that at some point "talking nice" is leading to being more efficient, they would do work on it, but not before they perceive it that way.

6) Many junior developers think that they are entitled to some coding celebrity's special attention instead of taking the hard way, improving themselves and then contributing when they are finally able to.


I may not have made myself clear, I'm already convinced that either vision of Shame-Driven Development was a bad idea. That being said, thanks for your thoughtful reply!


So just say will take too long and too much effort to evaluate. Or even more bluntly, that it doesn’t seem useful.

How does calling it garbage help anyway, except perhaps to give yourself an adrenaline kick?


"What if the code was indeed garbage, and it cost a lot of time (super precious asset) and brain power (a precious asset) to evaluate and reject?"

Then do so. If you cannot articulate why it's bad, and suggest ways to improve it, then you do not have any business reviewing the code. Review is just as important as writing the code itself, and if you are unable to give that task the attention it deserves, then delegate it to someone who can.


Do you really need a CoC to know someone who says "This code is fucking garbage and you should be ashamed" is an idiot? Do you really need a CoC to kick out someone who says that?


Well, Linus has been doing that for years and widely praised for it. And because kicking him out was inconceivable, people did nothing and concluded nothing could be done.


Just the opposite: you need the CoC to make sure they do get kicked out. Because for example if the writer of that comment is friends with the moderators of the forum, they might get a slap on the wrist and allowed to continue. Having a written CoC lets people know that the mods can be held accountable to the document. Another example making the same point, this time of actual harassment being ignored: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxLENeCf3OA


>Just the opposite: you need the CoC to make sure they do get kicked out.

No, you don't. You don't need a CoC for sensible moderation.

Good moderation is a combination of clear, actionable rules, good intentions and wisdom. Documents like Contributor's Covenant do not help with any of that. They're vague, their intentions are debatable, above all they're the exact opposite of "wise".


Instead of punishing the other party, you have a choice to ignore that person by setting a filter for that person's email.

This way, if enough people filter-out, the person will be silenced. Others, who are more forgiving, would continue to receive that person's contributions.

My rule is, I make decisions for myself and only myself.


At that point the abusers who move in will realize you can't see them and will harass your members with impunity. That doesn't seem like good community management. Actually it seems like throwing new members into the deep end (exposing them to every bad actor you already knew about) and at some point I suspect the only people who join your site will be malicious.


You can't be harassed if you don't listen.


That is flat out not true. Someone constantly attacking your character to others is going to have an effect. Those other people may be influenced by what that person says, and that will affect how they perceive you, which will in turn affect your involvement in the project.


No, it is true. If a community doesn't listen to that sort of behavior, then it has no effect.


That is a mountain sized "if".


That's part of community building. A good community will reject noise and move on.


That kind of behavior is endemic in our community. So... yes, I guess we do.


I would like to say no, but the world has proven me wrong in numerous projects that I’ve seen.


I'm inclined to believe that the normative case for these kinds of documents is not intentional harassment, but simple miscommunication. Starting with encouraging introspection and moving through mediation before getting to outright banning makes sense. Moving straight to ejection for comments that could easily not be intentionally abusive, is just giving ultimate authority to anyone who takes offence. Better to put both sides of a dispute on neutral ground, and allow community leaders (or the community at large) to sort out the disagreement. But a key step before that should be to encourage people to consider how their words and actions could be interpreted to hopefully avoid offending in the first place.


I don't think any one action is going to completely fix what's wrong with society. But I do think these guidelines are likely make society _better_ and and unlikely to make them worse. This definitely should not be the last action taken to make society better, and I look forward to more actions along these same lines.


Do you have evidence that people will harass others out of a community under guidelines like these? Or is that just an assumption designed to justify weaponized guidelines / authoritarian responses?




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