While OSI may have coined the term "open source" as a reaction to the word "free software" in the past, it did not invent the idea of free software. Rather, the term open source was a reaction to the desire for commerical enterprises to avoid saying software was free.
Now it rejects the same argument from developers of software to make a profit, which I find ironic relative to the founding mission.
Previously, Commons Clause was called out in aggressive terms in twitter, rather than seeking to understand the underlying rationale.
I am left to believe OSI views this as a useful political time to self-market, or otherwise sees licenses like this - which intend to fairly compensate software developers - as something that does not promote the interests of those that primarily fund it.
I'm sorry, but we don't need a gatekeeper anymore.
But we do need a gatekeeper - that's where you're wrong. Without it, we don't get a fair review of licenses by people most adept at understanding what Open Source is. Without it, we will go back to the wild west of licensing where we have hundreds of OSS licenses that each have their own little clauses and are written by developers, not lawyers, so they don't really hold up in court.
Open Source is for corporations to benefit from FOSS without the need to spend exorbitant amounts to acquire such functionality. But corporations are bound by a set of rules to operate, and as such, so should OSS licenses.
If open source were to revert to the old-style, write your own license if you want to, corporations will have a much more difficult time accepting the new software. OSS will probably die a nasty death, and we will go back to tons of proprietary software running the biggest apps.
The OSI is non-political and for you to argue such is silly. The organization has one goal: to make open source easier for business. What political nature can you see in there? Do they ever restrict anyone from making money off their creations? (The answer has always been NO)
So some developers want to make money on the more advanced features of their open source project. Well, if it happens after software has been around a long time (ala Redis) then people are going to complain. It sucks to have to go from a free model to a for-pay model, but I understand the motivations. I don't think any developer should be kept from making money for their work, but if they want to make money off of something AND control the source, DON'T call it open source, call it proprietary because that's what it is. The source is provided, yes, but that doesn't make it open source. To truly be open source it has to abide by the OSD and Commons Clause definitely does not.
So, is it time for new open source licenses? Maybe, but they should be governed by some committee and the OSI exists so why not them? You're arguing that we should move into an anarchist style of releasing open source... The time has come to make money!! Well, again, that's basically what proprietary software is all about.
There is absolutely zero reason why the concept empowering open source software, the free and open exchange of code and software, can't apply to the licenses themselves.
The reason I believe in open source software is that it empowers the communities and users behind the software, despite (and sometimes, in spite of) the leadership, nobody controls open source software. If the linux kernel went in a direction I didn't like, either with how they approve code change requests, or by adding in code that I don't like, I can subvert their control over the codebase with my own fork, with blackjack and hookers, and compete, because they ultimentally have no control over their codebase, it belongs to the community.
This should apply to licenses as well, there should be no authority, no gatekeeper, just the community.
You're right. There's no reason at all why the concept empowering open source and the free exchange of code can't apply to licenses. After all, software is shared freely by people with the skills to handle it, why can't we do the same with licenses?
Of course, this does kind of require that the people working with license experimentation know enough about law to provably know what they're doing. So perhaps the community might not be as large as might be hoped, as there are limits to what a self-taught not-lawyer can do when it comes to having legal standing.
Having observed this area for 18 years now, I'll say that gatekeeper (a party which has unwaveringly observed and stuck to delivering the principles of software freedom) is the Free Software Foundation. This is the only reason why users gravitate to "open source" - not its sexy name, but the freedoms such software provides when a user wants to use/apply it.
Back in the day, the founding president of OSI justified VA Linux making the "alexandria" project closed source (the software that ran Sourceforge.net back in the day - back when sourceforge.net was a good citizen). The remains of "alexandria" was forked to form other projects such as GNU savannah, and there was a later fork named GForge IIRC.
There is only one organization that has unwaveringly sought freedoms for users of software. I've firsthand heard it being accused of promoting communism, and sometimes have wondered if it went too far. At least, they haven't wandered in their principles.
For all his craziness, you've got to admire Stallman for his unwavering conviction of his version of what free software should be and allow. I don't know whether he'd be frothing at the mouth, or quietly thinking "I told you so..." about the current antics at Redis and Mongo...
The code for windows has been leaked and people could get the source. Sometimes companies have agreements for viewing the source of software they produce. These are two examples where the source code is visible, but this alone does not make them open source. There must be other attributes beyond just being able to see the source code.
If I give you some source code, with the license that you cannot run the software, modify the code or copy or use the code in any way, it follows your definition and is still useless.
Well, besides OSI's definition -- which I understand is being questioned in this comments section, so I suppose mentioning it is begging the question -- most of the bibliography and articles out there use "open source" in the sense I mentioned.
Microsoft was also aware of the accepted meaning, which is why they introduced their "Shared Source Initiative" back in the old days (note how deviously careful they were about the naming).
Honestly, this comment section is the first time I've heard about the OSI, I guess whenever I read articles that use "open source" I've assumed a definition that may not be technically correct. I would hazard a guess that my definition is probably more widely held but that could just be my personal bias.
The OSI is a respected organization that defends basic and non-controversial rights in open source. The underlying reasons behind the Anti-Commons Clause are unimportant if the execution leads to such an egregious violation of these principles. I support the OSI and their mission is important. Getting angry with them for protecting open source from bad actors who try to subvert its freedoms while reaping its benefits is ridiculous.
I'm not saying that MongoDB is in the wrong here. The new license is perhaps misguided in that it seems functionally equivalent to the AGPL, but after I read it I think it meets the OSD. However, MongoDB should have spoken to the OSI before switching their license to be sure.
> OSI was specifically created to subvert freedoms that the Free Software Foundation protects
This is one of those spots where knowledgeable people can disagree, because they're working with a different set of values.
To someone who prefers the Free Software model, OSI was created to subvert freedoms that the FSF wants to preserve. To someone who prefers the Open Source model, OSI preserves freedoms that the FSF is trying to restrict.
To the other 99% of humanity, this particular debate probably sounds a whole lot like the Judean People's Front vs. the People's Front of Judea.
(Edit: s/intelligent/knowledgeable/ -- better choice of words.)
This isn't really true. The FSF and OSI have subtly different goals but the definition of open source and free software are nearly identical. The OSI exists to be a non-political entity so that people who want to work on open source have resources to do so without necessarily participating in the politics of the FSF.
> The OSI exists to be a non-political entity so that people who want to work on open source have resources to do so without necessarily participating in the politics of the FSF.
In what way is the FSF any more political than the OSI, beyond trying to protect the defined freedoms of free software?
By inserting itself as the only legitimate body to define what "open-source" is, it is by definition engaging in politics, no less than the FSF.
> The OSI is a respected organization that defends basic and non-controversial rights in open source
It is rather assuming that the OSI is "respected" or that it defends "non-controversial rights in open source".
The right to take my code, profit from it and not share back is essentially what the OSI stands for and is thus not respected by me.
>In what way is the FSF any more political than the OSI, beyond trying to protect the defined freedoms of free software?
The OSI only concerns itself with defining open source and publishing a list of open source licenses. The FSF unquestionably concerns itself with much more.
>The right to take my code, profit from it and not share back is essentially what the OSI stands for and is thus not respected by me.
No, this is what open source stands for. If you don't want to write open source software, then don't. That's your choice. But the right to do exactly this is protected by both the OSI and the FSF, and I doubt you can find another authority which disagrees.
> The OSI only concerns itself with defining open source and publishing a list of open source licenses. The FSF unquestionably concerns itself with much more.
The FSF concerns itself with defining/defending free software, same as OSI does for open-source.
If FSF "concerns itself with much more", I assume you would not have a problem listing some of these things.
> No, this is what open source stands for. If you don't want to write open source software, then don't. That's your choice. But the right to do exactly this is protected by both the OSI and the FSF, and I doubt you can find another authority which disagrees.
The difference here is that the OSI was historically created as a response to FSF for this exact purpose, whereas the FSF was primarily created to defend copyleft, later adopting some non-copyleft licenses as well, so the exact reverse of what OSI did.
Ask the FSF yourself. Richard Stallman can be reached via rms@gnu.org and usually responds to emails within a day. The FSF defends the right for others to sell your software, and has wide-reaching political ambitions. Don't just take my word for it, ask them.
YOU have asserted that the FSF has "wide-reaching political ambitions", therefore it is upon you to provide evidence for this.
> has wide-reaching political ambitions
I am asking what "political" ambitions does it have, beyond protecting free software.
> Don't just take my word for it
The thing is, you didn't provide any evidence of the "political ambitions" you speak of and so you're quite right, I don't take you word for it, unless you list at least some of these ambitions.
Looking at both links it is completely obvious which is the political of the two. You are really stretching calling the Advocate Circle the same as the various FSF campaigns. Some of the FSF campaigns listed are "surveillance", "upgrade from Windows" and DRM.
> Some of the FSF campaigns listed are "surveillance", "upgrade from Windows" and DRM
All of these restrict your freedoms, so that someone else is in control of the program and not the user. This is very much what free software stands for. So in reality, you're disagreeing with the principles of free software themselves.
> surveillance
Directly interferes with you being in control of the program, if it spies on you, violating the principle of free software that the user should be in control of the program and not the other way around.
> upgrade from Windows
So the Free Software Foundation advocating for the adoption of Free Software. Isn't that what it should be doing?
> DRM
DRM, by its very definition, restricts the freedom of the user to run the software in any way they wish, thus violating the free software principles.
None of these imply a "wide-reaching" political agenda.
>> The right to take my code, profit from it and not share back is essentially what the OSI stands for and is thus not respected by me.
Nope. You are so very wrong here. The OSI defines open source so that licenses comply with the terms... that's all. They don't have any other agenda, period. Stating so shows a complete lack of understanding OSS and the OSI.
Stating so shows a complete lack of understanding of why and by whom OSS/the OSI was started and popularized.
It ignores by who the OSI was co-founded and promoted by, (ESR, O'Reilly etc.) and why, (as a response to FSF to make free software more appealing to corporations for the exact purpose I outlined in my original post).
You repeatedly became uncivil in your posts to this thread. We ban accounts that do that. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here.
(That includes not using uppercase for emphasis. That's basically online yelling.)
> Open Source was a way to make free software acceptable to businesses, not subvert the FSF.
Read my comment again please.
I didn't say subvert the FSF, but some of the things the FSF stands for. This, as you correctly point out, in order to make it more appealing to businesses, which I didn't dispute.
The Open Source Definition provides a single point of reference for what it means for a project to be "open source."
Licenses are submitted for approval by those who wish to prove that the license provides the benefits and freedoms assured by the Open Source Definition and therefore by open source.
Licenses that do not provide each benefit and freedom in that definition are not not approved and are not—literally by definition—open source.
MongoDB recognises the value that a consistent worldwide definition of open source provides to the entire software development ecosystem and is seeking approval for their license to show their support and respect for the definition.
1. "Licences that conform to the OSD are open source". Agreed.
2. "Licences that do not conform to the OSD are not open source". Ok, let's run with that for now.
That is not what you said upthread. You said "MongoDB is under a non-approved license and therefore IS NOT OPEN SOURCE". Nope. Even for those who accept the OSD as the sole definition of open source, you haven't yet established whether MongoDB's new licence is 1 or 2. You cannot categorically (capitally!) say "IS NOT OPEN SOURCE" until you establish that.
Using basic context clues and inference, it's obvious she meant "IS NOT OPEN SOURCE [currently]". The license has not been approved as open source. It may be eventually, but it is not at present.
No. She's conflating "an OSI-approved licence" with "open source". The Open Source Definition does not contain a requirement that a licence must be OSI-approved.
And who is the trusted organization that makes the determination whether a license adheres to OSD? Unless you want to hire your own lawyer and make the determination yourself, the world must wait on OSI's review of the license. Until further proof is put forth, I also would not consider the new license to be open source. That is, it is not yet safe to say that this license is open source. This holds true for me, because OSI guidelines are organizationally justifiable and makes my life easier when dealing with auditors.
Rather than pontificating about terms and hilariously claiming unenforcable rights to commonly-used words, the OSI should look at the reason Redis, Mongo, and soon others seek to update their license terms. It's because development is simply not sustainable in times of cloud providers. Who does the OSI represent? Is their intent that nobody except cloud providers can earn a living, by commoditizing software?
While OSI may have coined the term "open source" as a reaction to the word "free software" in the past, it did not invent the idea of free software. Rather, the term open source was a reaction to the desire for commerical enterprises to avoid saying software was free.
Now it rejects the same argument from developers of software to make a profit, which I find ironic relative to the founding mission.
Previously, Commons Clause was called out in aggressive terms in twitter, rather than seeking to understand the underlying rationale.
Some of my thoughts:
https://medium.com/@michaeldehaan/why-open-source-needs-new-...
I am left to believe OSI views this as a useful political time to self-market, or otherwise sees licenses like this - which intend to fairly compensate software developers - as something that does not promote the interests of those that primarily fund it.
I'm sorry, but we don't need a gatekeeper anymore.