There actually are several aspects of being a poker player (online) that make it really hard, though surely not impossible, to live a normal life. You have very little interaction with other people, your working hours are partially out of your control, and it is incredibly stressful/tiring. I know a few people who managed to combine poker with a normal life, but I know way more who utterly failed.
There actually are several aspects of being a poker player (online) that make it really hard, though surely not impossible, to live a normal life. You have very little interaction with other people, your working hours are partially out of your control, and it is incredibly stressful/tiring.
I also used to play a ton of online poker and it was my ability to balance it all that ultimately convinced me I'd be better off trying to found a startup.
A lot of the skills overlap, which is why many of the successful high stakes players also have profitable side businesses.
If you're looking for an excellent discussion by a bunch of very successful online players on what they want to do with their lives, check out this thread, which is titled Poker vs Law School vs Trading:
Ditto. I also attempted to do this full-time but only managed to squeak out a moderate living, and eventually grew sour with those points of intense rage (going on tilt) that would crush weeks (and sometimes months) of work.
It's strange how poker works but I imagine Buddhism and poker to be the most complimentary religion-to-profession complement on the planet.
And I agree with the first point - poker is an empty job. You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room.
> You do not create wealth - you make another poor soul, likely a gambling addict, further burdened by that addiction. Meanwhile, the only person you're "creating wealth" for is the guy with his feet up that owns the poker room.
Does a sportsman make wealth? What about a professional chess player? Snooker player? Pool hustler?
What about a brewery, "further burdening that addiction" of alcoholism? What about the barman what served the drink? Just creating wealth for the pub? The sommelier?
What if I start a start-up that's about 'social' betting, like a betfair exchange about film stars? What if I shake up the gambling industry with my social facebook Zynga poker that launches real-money tables?
Your concept of what is a 'valued' job seems very narrow.
Gambling is an enjoyable past-time for millions, throughout history, in cultures around the world. For every sad story of gambling addition, that are thousands who enjoy gambling responsibly on a recreational basis, just for every alcoholic there are thousands that enjoy drinking socially. And some social gamblers sometimes blow a bit too much, just like social drinkers sometimes go overboard at the weekends. Things aren't black and white.
And those professionals provide the entertainment that others enjoy, either directly (from spectators on TV) or indirectly (providing that example that 'the game can be beat').
Sure it's not the most worthwhile job in the world in the grand scheme of directly creating wealth, or improving man-kind. But then, dare I say it, nor do do many a start-up.
You've definitely got a point. But I still feel that even most of the other things you mentioned create more wealth. I'll try and explain my feelings, but I might do a poor job of it.
Sure, professional sports players, chess players, etc. are not creating material wealth (I'll sidestep the hustler issues for now). The thing is, they are creating wealth by pg's definition, i.e. creating something people want (entertainment, in this case, that people can view).
Compare that with pro poker players. Ask most players what they want (who they want to play against), and they won't tell you that they want to play against a pro. I think pros make most of their money, "preying" on poor players who don't realize they're up against a pro. In that sense, pro players are not really creating wealth, they're tricking other people.
Of course, I'm completely ignoring a part of the poker world which does create wealth, i.e. the televised matches. These are obviously equal to spectator sports. Still, I think the majority of players who grind out a living playing against weaker players really aren't adding wealth to the world.
Hope that was clear. I'm not anti-poker players or anything, I love poker, I'm just explaining why I would never do it for a living.
I remember reading in a poker magazine where they had asked several professional players what it's like to be a poker player and they all agreed it's actually rather depressing. Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems, and the whole idea of "emptiness" was brought up by everyone. I wish I could find that article again.
>Your job becomes preying on people with gambling problems
Or perhaps you have a gambling problem, but are successful enough to deny it.
FTA:
> "Looking back, what I've figured out," he says, "is that no matter the amount of money poker players win, they still want more. You're never happy."
I'm not sure you can really call this a "problem". That's like saying someone has an "entrepreneurship" problem because they keep wanting to create new companies from zero. If they're successful at it, why not?
I was trying to point out that successful poker players might be a part of the same group they're "preying on" - those with gambling addictions. Of course, as you said, they're successful, so the addiction might not be considered a problem.
However, if it is an addiction they may be financially successful, but unable to psychologically satisfy their their appetite for money or risk.
I wouldn't say that any serial startup founder has an "entrepreneurship problem", but if they were never satisfied with their accomplishments, I would view that as a negative.
The quote from the article was:
>"[T]hey still want more. You're never happy."
I would consider that anyone who repeats a cycle of behaviour with the goal of achieving happiness or satisfaction but who always feels disappointed or unsettled might have a problem.
It seems to me "always wanting more and never being happy" is a pretty common human condition, especially in the west. Hell, the entire advertising industry thrives on reminding us of this condition. A good book that deals with this is "The Happiness Trap" by Russ Harris. I've really enjoyed applying his techniques to my life and being more content because of it.
The stresses of being a pro poker-player are roughly the same as being a start-up founder. My problem was it just got to be too much poker - poker for work, poker for fun, and I couldn't talk to anyone about anything but poker. The same thing happens with start-ups, but the conversation doesn't always start, "So I had KK in the big blind...," so it's more interesting.
I agree many people utterly fail, because I think that's largely because the past-time itself attracts those who have difficulties with addiction, time-management, and social interaction.
You list some things that make it really hard to live a normal life, but I disagree with some can offer counter-points to others.
You say there is little interaction with other people. This is true for many but doesn't have to be the case. I spend a lot of 'work time' talking with like-minded professionals, studying together or just daily banter. I probably have more social interaction through work than the time I worked in a small development company, and certainly more during my periods of (failing to) run startups.
You say working hours are partially out of your control, but with most forms of poker you can work any time of the day (literally any time in 24 hours, 7 days a week) - some times may be better than others, depending on the game you play. There's a lot to be done away from the table if the games are quiet. Compare this to the lack of flexibility with any other job: either a rigid 9-5, or at least restrictions on when business is to be done (conference calls, deadlines).
It can be stressful and tiring, but listening to some start-up stories here on HN, it can hardly compare! Some of you guys are working yourselves to death! Certainly you can put in long hours in poker, but it's a daily choice. The more hours at the table, the more money. I also believe that poker is actually fairly low-variance compared to other jobs, such as a running a start-up: Long days with long nights, hacking at weekends, all for a very high risk of failure months or even years down the line. With poker you can't count on a weekly (or even monthly) pay-check but in the long term, you cash in with regularity
Personally I like to work around 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. I might put in a short morning session, and a short evening session. Doing this it feels like I have all the day off to spend socialising, hacking on some pet project, relaxing. You don't have to hit the high-stakes to make a living from poker. In the "5-hour-work-week" concept of salary you earn very high, because I have no commute and flexibility to live anywhere in the world. I have moved continent 3 times in the last 3 years. I can jump on a plane and visit friends anywhere, and as long as I have an internet connection I know I can be there, on holiday and making money at the same time. And if you manage your time correctly, you should have time to fully develop other projects, be they startup ideas, or just other, more life-fulfilling hobbies.
There are certainly negatives to the job, but - at least to me - there's an overwhelming number of positives that many (including a lot of professionals) just don't focus on. If you take advantage of what the job has to offer there's no reason it should be the lonely, frustrating grind that many feel; quite the contrary.
Sincerely, A guy who used to do this