In 2004 it was trivial to get a New In Box IBM Model M keyboards in the US from online shops. It's fascinating to me how designer keyboards became a niche hobby of its own, despite having little-to-no empirical testing on comfort or speed, in ~10 years. Back then my Model M was a weird curiosity, now it's a prize.
Honestly Model M's are little more than historical curiosities at this point. The state of the art has moved on. Once you get used a to a good modern keyboard - I'm partial to Topre switches, myself) - the actuation force of the Model M is just really excessive, nearly double.
PS: If you really want them, you can get Unicomp boards built on the original IBM tooling for about $80.
[1] Yes, I have a couple Model M's around, including a 1991 'vintage' IBM with a PS/2 connector that doesn't play nice with modern motherboards - they don't generally supply enough milliamps).
Another 1987 model-M (compact mini to be precise) user here. I have never once even thought about how 'hard' it is to push down a key, hope you haven't just jinxed me! Yes, occasionally needing to unplug and replug the USB -> PS/2 interface when the keyboard is non-responsive is a pain, but I love it. It's a pleasant monthly ritual to remove the keys and clean them. In a time where everything is fast moving and development tools / environments / libraries seem to get old quickly, my keyboard is a timeless anchor that grounds my development work, and will also prove to be a handy melee weapon come zombie-apocalypse time...
I felt the same thing until after some years I started getting terrible pain in my wrists. It was the IBM keyboard I prized so much and held on to. Then I found some cherry keyboards in the trash in a pile of Point of Sale discards. Now for ten years, "garbage" as been the most prominent and stable feature of my workspace.
I don’t want to sound like Apple but you are probably using it wrong. I’ve seen people get used to typing on flat chicklet laptop keyboards and then taking those habits over to the proper old style keyboard.
An IBM keyboard is not meant for a typist that keeps their palms resting on desk while slumping in their chair. It’s meant for you to sit up straight and hover your palms over the keyboard.
If you type like that then it seems effortless and the keys feel light and you’ll never have any wrist issues. Reaching the numpad area is also easy because your hand is already in the air. A proper typing technique is like jiu jitsu—it leverages the weight of your entire hand and arm to assist with the key presses. Your hand is loose and mobile, so nerve compression is less likely. On a chicklet keyboard your fingers are mobile but the palms are “glued” in place. This encourages lots of “flexing” the fingers to reach farther placed keys, instead of just moving your entire hand in the “hover” typist approach. My guess is this creates ideal conditions for nerve compression.
The pain is good thing because it lets you know you’re doing something wrong. Using keyboard with low actuation force is just masking the problem. If you do something wrong with less force you will not feel any pain immediately. Same thing as people using shitload of fluffy pillows instead of fixing their sleeping posture. If you sleep on floor it might be uncomfortable at first but it also forces you into better posture, instead of making it bearable to hold a wrong one.
You do sound a bit like Apple in the sense that you posit that your way is the right way but you don't really justify it with solid scientific arguments. My technique is actually pretty close to the one you describe (my hands hover on top of the keyboard, although my elbows rest on the table) but some of your arguments sound off to me, in particular:
>A proper typing technique is like jiu jitsu—it leverages the weight of your entire hand and arm to assist with the key presses.
Given the relatively high typing frequency a decent typist reaches and the fact that you generally start typing the next key before you're done with the current one I can't really see how that would work. My palms are mostly static while I type, just hovering gently above the keyboard. They do translate a bit on the horizontal plane but I definitely don't really lower them to drive the key down. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but if you reach a somewhat decent typing speed of a few hundred keys per seconds that makes for a pretty spastic vibration with your whole hand.
Also I think it's a bit condescending to assume that every people who ends up with RSI or similar problems were "doing something wrong".
If you have elbows on desk you are probably not sitting up straight. Anyway you are wrong, when the elbow is free you can put your weight into typing. Just try it. It’s a bit of a flick of the wrist for weak fingers and slight up and down movement with your bicep, it’s not a lot but it translates to a lot of force. It’s the same principle as using your hips to put a punch in boxing or martial arts.
When your palms or elbows are resting all those movements are limited and your hands quickly tense up.
EDIT: Here’s a quick sketch: http://svgur.com/s/7e6 The fingers are below the palms not at the same level, but this is only natural if your back is straight. Arm should bend at close to 90°
Whatever the reason, I think it was the high actuation force of the IBM keyboard. I don't really slouch. I did not hover my arms and I really don't want to all the time, but I had a pretty good wrist pillow, two "Sun The Network is the Computer" pads adhered together, so my angles probably weren't as bad as you imagine.
Any kind of wrist “support” will severely limit your movement range. If you don’t slouch it should be easy to just bring the keyboard closer to your body, to the edge of the desk. I’ve made a sketch in case it helps: http://svgur.com/s/7e6
Sorry to hear about these problems, but if 'garbage' works for you, then that's all that matters. I swap between my model M (for my Windows 10 PC) and a 'garbage' low end USB generic keyboard, and find both work fine, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if the model M wasn't available.
I don't know if this has something to do with my good fortune (so far!) of no keyboard-related RSI issues, but I was trained as a classical piano player from a very young age. It could be the posture lessons I learned - sometimes at the wrong end of a wooden ruler! - back then have transferred across to my money-making keyboard skills.
I used to play the drums and I did not have wrist issues so I figured I would be less affected by RSI from using a keyboard. It could have made it worse though.
Having no win/meta keys on the IBM keyboard actually led me to try different devices but IBM felt better than all those things so I kept coming back and dealing without the keys. I was very happy with the IBM keyboard for a very long time.
Before I found the POS discard Cherrys, I think I had only heavily used the Cherry MX on a Wyse terminal, but I wasn't really thinking about it at the time. The G80-8200 with clears were a great find with only noticeable wear on the num-pad enter key. The keyboard itself stores the setup and handles all the extra keys, not software on the host, so that's especially great for me as I have some macros to control the kvm switch.
There are a lot of keyboards that some people really like but I think are terrible and preferred the IBM over them. Sun type 4, type 5; DEC LK201, LK401; Keytronic come to mind.
There seem to be about 50 injokes here I'm not getting. I know that "Chad" is incel-speak for a good-looking guy, but the rest of it's a complete mystery. Is it worth having someone explain to me?
I walk and look pretty much exactly like virgin, and I've been walking and looking like that since like forever (pre-teen). Back when I was pre-teen I was a virgin; nowadays I'm mid 30s and I'm a parent hence I have empirical proof I'm no virgin (not that it is very important..). The reason why my walk is typical might be related to ASD (yes, I have a diagnosis). It has nothing to do with virginity.
It’s not so much just mechanics as a state of mind. In my experience, if you keep looking at the ground you are in your head doubting yourself all the time, whereas just looking at other people prevents that and somehow gives you more confidence.
That said, proper posture also relaxes your body and an upward head tilt (make sure your monitor is at an eye level) makes breathing easier, even further adding to that[1][2]. Also prevents back pain issues later in life (I hope!).
Don’t treat it as gospel but it’s a good starting place:
[1] Seriously try tilting your head toward the ceiling right now and take a breath. Then do the same looking at the ground. Now consider you keep one of those postures for many daylight hours every day. It has to have a profound impact on your QoL, there’s no way around it.
There's a variety of reasons why people look at the ground.
For me, for one, I got cats, I don't wanna trip over them. Especially not with my kid. I tend to bump my feet a lot on my kid's toys and other stuff or objects lying on the ground (even permanently or slightly moved). And I need to be careful when I walk downstairs because I am clumsy. I hate, absolutely hate, stepping into dog shit when I'm out and about. If I'd step on a slug, that'd be disgusting but dog shit is a whole different level. And its rampant here. Finally, many 'normal' people use smartphones whilst on the move (I personally generally don't). That being said, I do try to look straight, I try to look people in the eye, but that's secondary to the above examples. Which are IMO related to survival and conveniency.
As for your linked Wikipedia article, quoting from it:
"However, one of the main assumptions of the Gokhale Method, that people in less industrialized societies have less back pain,[4] is incorrect: mainstream science states back pain occurs to a similar extent in all cultures.[20][21] As of June 2015, the Gokhale method had not yet been scientifically studied."
Furthermore I encourage the reader to read up on the Feldenkrais method. This Wikipedia entry shows how controversial it is (Gokhale method seems to be based on that).
I don’t know anything about it. But just looking at this photo[1] it looks like some hipster bullshit.
Gokhale’s techniques deal purely with posture and are immensely useful just to avoid or reduce any back pain. It’s just a way to sit or sleep while keeping straight upright posture effortlessly for long periods of time.
I can probably explain the sitting techniques to someone in about 15 minutes and ignore the other 80% of the book and still improve their life in a significant way. I recommend the book because it has decent pictures and shows historical examples of proper posture. Everything she shows looks like a natural position for a human to be in, very much unlike whatever’s going on in that picture.
Anyway like I said it’s more about where YOU are consciously. Are you in your head thinking or are you in the moment just walking and looking at the world around you. The posture etc. follows that, you don’t have to actively think about it. That’s why the meme in question selects it as a signal for confidence.
Furthermore, you have peripheral vision and your brain constantly inspects and maps your surroundings. It will not let you trip over things if you just look ahead.
EDIT:
Also I don’t know what the Wikipedia editors are smoking. The references for that “incorrect” statement are a complete joke. Gokhale actually provides ample evidence for this assertion in the book if you want to check it yourself.
Posture is a controversial subject. While it is undoubtedly important, there is a lot of pseudo-science built around it. Especially when it comes to linking posture and mindset.
As for looking down, I found that looking at people feet makes it easier to navigate a crowd, that's the opposite it open areas.
> Posture is a controversial subject. While it is undoubtedly important, there is a lot of pseudo-science built around it. Especially when it comes to linking posture and mindset.
I don’t see a lot of exceptions to this rule. Generally, I can judge someone’s state of mind by their posture and body language. The notion that body and mind are not very much connected actually seems more controversial to me if anything. Indeed, in evolutionary time scale, speech has not been the primary mode of communication for very long.
> As for looking down, I found that looking at people feet makes it easier to navigate a crowd, that's the opposite it open areas.
I find it if I look people in the eye I don’t actually have to “navigate” anything.
It has become harder to find those right? They are kinda my dream keyboard, but if I actually invest that much on a keyboard, I think a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard would be wiser...
Nah, no harder. Both the Realforce and TypeHeaven boards are readily available from Amazon, and Topre has huge market share in the Japanese commercial market (Think things like POS terminals).
They're just expensive. The Realforce 104 goes for ~$250, which is about what I paid for mine 3-4 years ago.
I guess it depends on your definition of crazy. Yes, it's expensive for a keyboard but for something you spend 8+ hours a day interacting with (and will last forever) it amortizes over time nicely.
Or...to put it another way... I think $2.5 per switch is a perfectly reasonable price for an industrial-grade component that is rated at 50 million cycles of durability.
I liked topre for a while but switched to cherry mx red (leopold 660) because the keys spring up faster and have the same 45g actuation force. I can easily type 100+ wpm on the cherry but would easily get out of rhythm on my realforce. You might like the reds.
> despite having little-to-no empirical testing on comfort or speed
Although it's not empirical, I think there's a pretty big consensus that not having to bottom out on the keystroke is a pretty big benefit in terms of comfort.
Kind of follows the model of a lot of geek toys - case in point, synthesisers - which have gone through many cycles of the above, many times over the years, and it doesn't look like its going to change any time soon...
I have three computers and all have IBM Model M keyboards. I have tried newer mechanical keyboards, but I've always returned to my Model M. I'm sure they will outlive me and become part of my estate.
I have a coworker who hoarded quite a few when we were shutting down mainframes in an old dc way before my time. I often casually tell him that when he retires he had better give me one.
When I worked at IBM parts were RED tagged or GREEN tagged. RED meant you had to account for them. Green meant that you did not. Keyboards were GREEN tagged. There are lots of ex-IBMers with a trunk load of Model M keyboards.
I believe that it's a combination of a satisfying sound (to the user), a complete disregard for the comfort of those within earshot of the user, and a lot of marketing to justify luxury pricing for what is now a commodity item. The target demographic for these skews younger from what I've seen.
I used a board with Cherry Browns at work in a cubicle, with zero complaints. They aren't all that loud, especially once you've learned to mostly avoid bottoming out the keys.
I'm not a younger demographic, and I was getting pain in my finger joints while typing. Switching to a mech fixed that.
Logitech's Romer-G keyboards are my choice, because they have no sound but they do have the tactile feedback and longevity that I want.
It sounds like you're forced to work with some annoying people, but that doesn't make the market "commodity." That's just objectively wrong. Tell those people to get the quieter keys. Don't let them tell you it isn't possible. It is.
Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant that keyboards are a commodity. They're mass produced low margin items and there's little differentiation for the most part. There's rarely a compelling event that causes someone to replace their existing keyboard. The industry always wants more profits and better margins so creating the perception of mechanical being better and therefore more expensive allows them to extract more money from an already mature market through the illusion of superiority. I do find the whole thing annoying but I suppose it's good for the economy, so more power to anyone that cares for them.
In case anyone's curious, the animated GIF in the header is showing a WASD 6-Key Cherry MX Switch Tester. I've found it useful in trying out the "feel" of different Cherry MX models. It's helped to translate the "key travel vs. force" graphs into the real-world.
I have another generic one, but it's trivial to 3D print your own. However, I found that it didn't actually inform how I would like the key when used in anger. Only actually using it in a keyboard would do that.
So far I'm using three different (non-Cherry) MX keys: lightest and linear for the weakest fingers which are typically modifiers, heaviest for the center row strong fingers.
Tool fetishes... Sadly, thought I have about 100 keyboards, of every shape, size, switch, My record typing speed is on a 15 dollar logitech k120. It's pretty much for the sound and the art of it, more than the utility. Wish I knew that when I started. And lost a couple WPM over kinesys advantage and ergodox learning...
Keyboards, I believe, are a personal thing. Some people can live with any kind of keyboard. Others may need to feel the 'click' and feedback from the pressed keys.
I personally can live with some keyboards but not others. I'm currently typing on a USB based Thinkpad keyboard and like it. On the other hand, a Dell keyboard that came with my office system had a 'mushy' feel like I was typing on a dead fish that completely turned me off using that keyboard. :-)
I think that it is mostly familiarity, and once you start thinking about it you quickly begin to think to much and get lost in bad rationalizations, eventually bordering on the religious. When you believe that you can't overcome lack of familiarity you will never adopt, self-fulfilling prophecy.
My personal familiarity idol happens to be the Cherry rubber sheet series, kind of ironic among all the MX hype.
In a previous job, I was unhappy with the keyboard I had and took my Model M to work. It was so loud I had to stop typing whenever the coworker I shared the office with was on the phone. Which was kind of a lot.
Later, I gave that keyboard to my parents, thinking they might feel more at home with it. They did not, though, and threw the keyboard out. They are lucky I love them very much.
Are there any proper mechanical keyboards for Mac? I've looked around and haven't found anything that fits what I'm looking for.
I know Das makes a Mac keyboard, but the command key is too far to the left. When you look at an Apple keyboard, the command key aligns to be directly below 'x', making it easy to reach with your thumb. I think the lower height on Apple keyboards helps as well.
The closest thing I've found are a couple keyboards on Massdrop that do have the Alt/Command key further to the right but they are sold out by the time I find them.
CODE Keyboards [1] have a dip switch to swap the alt and super keys to make the keyboard aligned almost like this. I've also been able to easily swap the keycaps to make the visuals match too.
No, not really. I know because I've been looking for one several times and I've never found one. They're all generic/Windows keyboards. Even when they say it's a "Mac keyboard", it just means that they wrote different things on a couple of keycaps.
The best manufacturer I have come across for mechanical keyboards with actual Mac layouts are what Matias are offering. For example this: http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/
There's also the option that is not for the faintest of hearts: building your own keyboard. PCBs usually offer multiple kind of layout options for the key placement on the same board. One example of this: https://winkeyless.kr/product/b-87-ex-x2-pcb/ In the description they show a layout of the key placement with the different options highlighted in different colours. So if you want a 1.5X - 1X - 1.5X modifier keys on both sides of the keyboard, that's a possibility.
I've personally looked a bit into the custom keyboard route. I can't really say anything about casing and so on, because I haven't gotten that far into it. However, you're going to be spending a lot more money than for a generic mechanical keyboard on Amazon.
Just about any keyboard (mechanical or otherwise) can be used on a Mac. Inside of System Preferences there is a way to remap your command, alt/option, & caps lock, & control key locations if your keyboard doesn't have a way to flash a custom keymap.
My first Mechanical was a Das Ultimate 3 with Cherry MX Browns which I used for years on Mac, Windows, & Linux without customizing anything. I've since had numerous keyboards with various switches (Cherry MX Browns, Gateron Browns, Cherry MX Reds, Zealios, Cherry MX Silent Blacks, Topre, Cherry MX Silent Reds, Tealios, and others). I've used full size layouts, TKLs, 75%'s, 65%'s, 60%'s, and more.
My two primary boards right now are 2 HHKB BT's which utilize Topre electrostatic capacitive switches you can learn more about how Topre works here: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch. One of my HHKB BT's is used primarily on my MacBook Pro and the other is used primarily on my Windows 10 & Linux desktop. I also have a build in the works for a new Cherry MX Silent Black 60% with a layout that matches the HHKB Pro 2 layout.
Most of the keyboards I've mentioned have actual fully customized keymapping abilities so you can setup layers, remap keys to wherever you want (if you use DVORAK or other layout that isn't QWERTY, etc).
I hope this helps. If you have any questions please feel free to reply here or drop me a note on Twitter, Reddit, or Geekhack using the same name (links below).
I have the Das one. I think the key height makes up for the positioning. I didn't even notice this when I started using the keyboard and I have no problem switching between the two.
It's a great keyboard. If that's the only thing stopping you, then I would just buy it and be happy.
Additionally, if you find a keyboard on massdrop you want, you can hit request to be notified when a drop comes back, and increase the likelihood of it coming back if enough people request it.
I have not seen anything. The closest I've seen to targeting the "Mac Keyboard" audience is this Input Club board that they are even advertising as being for that audience but still has the "normal" layout.
I think the best you're going to do is a standard layout board. I am a mac user(at work) and I use the mk typist with Kalih box white. Seriously, it's $99 and has some incredibly high end features. Not to mention that the box white is an AWESOME switch.
I have used that for about two decades and it's awesome. The only issue with this keyboard (beside price) is the size so I have tried [too] many others, but always return to it. However by now it's massively modified: all electronics and keycaps replaced (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vr1gvk0gtophnbz/Kinesis%20Advantag...)
What exactly is a "Mac" keyboard? I'm looking at a macbook keyboard and a Dell laptop keyboard. The only difference I can see are the Control, Fn, Super, and Alt keys are rearranged. There is an extra right super on the macbook, but no right control key.
The spacing on Mac and Windows keyboards definitely feel different, and are rather disorienting if you are used to Windows style keyboards. There is no del on Mac either.
NB: at least in Denmark, micro-switches were not known as "Cherry switches". American bias much? (Similarly for "Kleenex", "Q-tip", "Xerox", all of which are known by they generic names in Denmark and, AFAIK, the rest of Europe).
It would work in Germany as well. Though we have more generic names for this, the people interested in mechanical keyboards do understand and use Cherry Switches.
> Similarly for "Kleenex", "Q-tip", "Xerox", all of which are known by they generic names in Denmark and, AFAIK, the rest of Europe
Germany: Kleenex are Tempos (a different brand), Q-tips are Q-tips, Xerox are the generic Kopierer, no one would use that brand name here.
I have heard it among guys who work on pinball and arcade machines. It might be less common now, but next time you encounter an appliance repair tech (like microwave ovens) ask him/her.
They use "Cherry steam" as a way to describe the stem, but only really generic, $20 amazon keyboards ever use the word Cherry unless they actually have Cherry switches. A lot of newer, more boutique boards don't use Cherry, there are a lot of new and interesting Cherry stem switches not made by them.
Pretty much no way a $20 keyboard can have Cherry switches. Even the highest volume (MX Black) are ~30 cents at quantity, so a full set of keys for a keyboard already comes in at ~30 EUR.
The article claims so, though the generic usage must have died out long ago:
> the company quickly became best known for its electronic switches, particularly its microswitches, which (despite not being first to market) became commonly known as “cherry switches.”
That says their microswitches became known as "cherry switches". That is not the same thing as a generic; all microswitches being known as cherry switches.
Some people do call very good (but not good enough) chinese clones cherry switches too. Or mostly anything that is mechanically identical to a cherry (though in 9 out of 10 times, quality will be poor if not from cherry themselves)
On the other hand in Poland we have some items named after a brand, like the word for sneakers being "adidasy" or for bicycle being "rower". But "ksero" might be the only one after an American brand.
> Though it is a golden egg for any company to get their brand name to be associated as the name of the thing.
It can backfire, though. When your brand name becomes a generic term for a type of product, it can invalidate your trademark. I did not even know Thermos was an actual company until I was ~20 years old.
“Micro switch” is a trademark, originally of the Burgess Battery Company, Madison, Wisconsin, USA, where it was invented. (Spun off and owned by Honeywell since 1950.)
The greatest attraction of MX is that the selection of keycaps (pimpmykeyboard PBT keys are awesome) and compatible clones. The biggest drawback is that it's a pretty big and tall key. I hope ML becomes more popular as an alternative.
Agreed. It always baffled me that for all the prosumer Cherry MX keyboard options on the market, they all top off with the same style key caps as if injection mold engineering was a lost art. Something like the utilitarian ergonomics of a Logitech K270 coupled with Cherry ML switches would be a dream.
I appreciate the pointer(s), but lack of good keycaps is a major demotivator for me; I find the key cap almost as important as the switch (SA "Ice Cap" in PBT is therapy for my fingers).
EDIT: wording
Interesting. The company also owned a semiconductor division which it sold in 2000. Peter Cherry used the proceeds to take the company private and refocus on the switch division. I did not realize that the company was subsequently resold.
Typing this on a FILCO Majestouch Convertible2 FKBC91MRL/JB2 with Cherry Red switches. I have the same keyboard at home and work. Proper keyboards make so much difference in speed and accuracy of typing for me.
Not just that, I think that having vastly-different keyboards at home vs. at work increases keyboarding errors in at least one of those locations. I have a Model M at home, but an Apple keyboard (I think a model A1243) at work. I'm working on ordering a WASD keyboard with Cherry MX Clear switches, in an attempt to get things more similar (the office environment I'm in doesn't work with the noisy Model M).
Eh, you get used to it. I swap between a Kinesis Advantage, a compact with Reds, and a laptop keyboard, which are all about as different as possible and my typing speed and accuracy is about the same on all three. I actually score slightly higher for typing speed on the crappy laptop keyboard from doing speed tests.
Comfort is a completely different story though and I vastly prefer typing on the Kinesis. Being the most comfortable for the task is important when it comes to avoiding RSI.
I used to be pretty hardcore about having the right mechanical keyboard everywhere. But now I work a lot of the time on a variety of laptop keyboards as well as the mechanical keyboard on my iMac and I pretty much make do. like my mechanical keyboard but even when I'm working from home (i.e. much of the time), I end up working on my laptop in a variety of locations around the house.
I've used Model Ms / unicomps extensively and like them plenty, but I switched to Cherry in part because they're a little quieter without sacrificing too much feedback. I routinely work late into the night at home without disturbing the family [much!].
Agreed - Cherry G83 user here -- I've always been a poor typist, and without the feedback from a decent keyboard, my typing is just atrocious. If I have to use a dome-switch board, I'm constantly having to backspace and fix stuff I failed to actuate, or double-keyed.
Majestouch TKL Cherry Blue checking in. Was slightly dubious at first and thought I'd fallen for the mechnical keyboard meme, but no regrets now the keys have bedded in properly.
I tried various mech keyboards, and in the long run, I don't think they're any better than say Logitech k120 or Apple Wired keyboard. Actually, I love the Apple Wired keyboard, I wish there was a variant with non-Mac layout, or perhaps in dark color.
The biggest issue I have with mech keyboards is how tall they are. It instantly makes my wrists hurt because I haven't used such tall keyboards since the 90's. I prefer to lay my hands almost flat on the keyboard. Although I've been using a keyboard with low-profile Kailh switches lately and it's pretty nice to type on.
The biggest thing for me is that a mechanical keyboard will usually be full sized and have the classic IBM layout. Non-mechanical keyboards are all over the place, with often undersized keys and weird nonstandard layouts, so it's really difficult for me to work on them with my sausage-finger hands.
