Users flag stories that they don't think fit the site guidelines. That's all that happened here.
I get that you disagree. People disagree about this all the time, often strongly. I doubt there's a single story that every user agrees belongs on HN.
The only unusual thing in this case is the drama you've created about it. We can debate whether a CIA director nomination belongs on HN, but there's no question that the above submission and your comments are breaking the site guidelines. Those are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Please read them and follow them when posting here. They're written the way they are for good reasons, based on over ten years of running this place.
No one's questioning the importance of major political stories, by the way. Of course they're important—much more important than most of what gets posted here. That's why we need flagging. Otherwise they would take over the site, and HN would be a completely different place.
HN's mandate is to gratify intellectual curiosity. Not all political stories are off topic, but the ones that only stir up outrage, however justifiably, and don't also gratify intellectual curiosity, are not a good fit.
There's a problem here which perhaps someone would like to step up and solve. HN is the most popular news aggregation site. A lot of people only read HN for their daily news.
Stories like the one being discussed are important, and need to be heard. There could be a compromise solution where everyone ends up happy.
I'm pretty sure Google News and, even though it's not it's main purpose, Facebook are far more popular news aggregators, and even if the latter isn't intended as a news aggregator, both are deliberately more general focus than HN.
For news discussion platforms, Facebook (again) and Reddit are bigger than HN.
I think you are right, I had a weird feeling about my comment while writing it and I felt I was missing something. I don't think I'm wrong however. Perhaps it is that readers of hackernews are more in touch with certain things than the general public. I read HN specifically to avoid the noise and nonsense of the sources you named, for example.
That doesn't mean I only want to read tech news or things of "intellectual curiosity", it just means that the news sources the two organizations you named draw upon are in the business of publishing garbage. The up/down moderation and flagging of a real aggregate site like HN makes a huge difference in quality of content, when it's used properly. Reddit users abuse it to vote their feelings which defeats the benefits.
The thing is, the readers HackerNews attracts are a result of its focus; weakening the focus invites HN gaining the character of the sites you don't like (some of which, as you note, have similar community moderation mechanisms bit different results, compared to HN.)
>>Not all political stories are off topic, but the ones that only stir up outrage, however justifiably, and don't also gratify intellectual curiosity, are not a good fit.
So does that mean I can flag anything that doesn’t gratify my intellectual curiosity?
Because I personally find it very intellectually curious what is currently happening in the United States, but when those stories get buried by a few overzealous people then I feel like I should do the same when someone else posts a story about the latest JavaScript framework. Yet I feel like if I started flagging them I would probably lose my privileges here.
It sounds like you might want a different kind of forum than HN. If every political outrage made the front page, that would change HN into a forum about "what is currently happening in the United States". Such a site could be valuable, but wouldn't be HN. HN has a different mandate, which it's our job to stick to.
There's room for lots of kinds of website. I think a forum dedicated to intellectual curiosity has a right to exist, among others; and if HN is to be that, it has to be preserved actively, since the default forces all point the other way. User flags are part of how HN preserves itself. Yes, there are exceptions, but those need to be infrequent and have some unusual quality that raises them out of the category of latest outrage.
The supply of outrages outweighs the capacity of this site to accommodate them. Rather than calling that disgusting and despicable (as happened a lot today), it would be better to find a different kind of site that can accommodate them, or perhaps even to start one.
Also, it's messed up that a HN mod would accuse a user who wants this story unflagged and discussed of "creating drama".
Your reluctance to state exactly which guidelines OP broke is telling, as is your open contempt and patronising attitude to the many HN users who have expressed that they want to be allowed to discuss this. Regardless of how much "outrage" it might generate (seriously that's gotta be one of the stupidest dang things I've ever read) we need to talk about this.
>The only unusual thing in this case is the drama you've created about it.
I haven't created any drama at all. Many people feel strongly about this and have said so, are they all "creating drama" as well, or is it possible people really give a fuck that this torturer will have an incredible amount of power?
>there's no question that the above submission and your comments are breaking the site guidelines
The only guideline I have broken is the one about vote totals, which I was unaware of and which has special relevance here. You could have asked me to remove it, there was no need to allow the whole thread to be flagged over a straw-man.
It is telling that you claim there is 'no question' about this, when people are questioning it all over this thread.
>Not all political stories are off topic, but the ones that only stir up outrage, however justifiably, and don't also gratify intellectual curiosity, are particularly important to flag.
What?? So, no matter how important a story is, if enough people pretend to be 'outraged' the story must be flagged? Please tell me you see the many things that are wrong with that line of argument. What a despicable thing to say.
There are many comments that agree this is worthy of discussion, the least you can do is allow the conversation to happen - the very least.
This is a critical discussion to have. As it stands, conversation on this topic has been strongly suppressed, and rather than being concerned about that, you're patronizing me, accusing me of creating drama, and implying I want HN to work according to my political views. Please take this all a little bit more seriously and recognize that it's nothing to do with me; but all of us, globally.
I don't doubt that your strong feelings on this topic are sincere and justified. And yes, the word drama is a bit harsh—which I normally avoid. But you really did do some egregious things.
You posted 18 fulminating comments in a row, some of which would normally be bannable offenses (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577259), sent us demanding and even threatening emails, and posted this off-topic meta-thread trying to gin up outrage about moderation, all because of a routine community action that happens every day on HN. That's what I meant by drama. I'm not going to ban you for posting things like "feck off ya mook" today. Everybody goes on tilt sometimes. But getting banned is the expected outcome for behavior like that, so please don't do it again.
You felt this story should be on HN. Other users felt it shouldn't be. That's normal. The flags won over the upvotes, indicating that the bulk of the community doesn't agree with you. I don't see why your preference should matter more than theirs, especially since the mandate of the site (intellectual curiosity yes, political flamewars no) at first blush points rather in their favor than yours.
We're always fine to hear counterarguments, but when the 'counterargument' consists of calling names like despicable, etc., merely because HN is behaving the way it always has, you actually create a persuasive reason not to give you what you want: you're showing what kind of discussion would result from doing so.
If you want to influence what discussion takes place on HN, you need to do two things. First, you need to really grok the mandate of the site and make your case based on that. Otherwise your argument will amount to demanding that HN be a different kind of site than it is, which doesn't hold water. And you also need to really grok the values of the site (civility and substance yes, snark and attack no) and demonstrate how the discussion you want can adhere to them by adhering to them yourself. Otherwise you'll have influence all right, but in the reverse direction.
I understand how strong these feelings can be and why. Torture is wrong. If we were to let that determine HN moderation, though, HN would soon become only about that and things like that, which would kill HN. We work to make sure that doesn't happen, but not because we don't care about more important matters.
Of course it's routine, and you guys mostly showed your unfamiliarity with the site by acting like you uncovered some shocking new scandal in Hacker News users flagging the political news of the day off the front page.
You'd do better to familiarize yourselves with what HN is and how it works before jumping to confrontational conclusions, stimulating though that is. It's not as if any of this is secret.
I get that you disagree. People disagree about this all the time, often strongly. I doubt there's a single story that every user agrees belongs on HN.
The only unusual thing in this case is the drama you've created about it. We can debate whether a CIA director nomination belongs on HN, but there's no question that the above submission and your comments are breaking the site guidelines. Those are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Please read them and follow them when posting here. They're written the way they are for good reasons, based on over ten years of running this place.
No one's questioning the importance of major political stories, by the way. Of course they're important—much more important than most of what gets posted here. That's why we need flagging. Otherwise they would take over the site, and HN would be a completely different place.
HN's mandate is to gratify intellectual curiosity. Not all political stories are off topic, but the ones that only stir up outrage, however justifiably, and don't also gratify intellectual curiosity, are not a good fit.