I don't know that form is the key. Both of my injuries that put me off of lifting the last time were done under the watchful eye of my trainer. There was no cheating.

Something just 'popped', both times. And put me out of commission for weeks. First time was in my legs, the other was in my neck.

Rip does advise shifting to accommodate injury. But that's the extent of his advice.

Since I obviously have very little insight here to your possible situation, but was it perhaps too much weight? Or not enough ancillary training involving the supportive muscles?

And I believe, depending on your goals, there are ways to hit your goals safely, but they tend to take quite a bit longer, since it's a much slower progression and a slower set of actual set work.

It might be worth looking into, if you haven't already :)

I was following the Starting Strength Training program, created by Mark Rippletoe, one of the most respected names in strength training, under a trainer who learned how to train directly from Rip. There's no chance that I wasn't following the program correctly.

The problem is that the program is wrong. Taking your advice, to go for a slower progression, is going against the program. That is definitely something I could do, but why not just throw the whole program out the window? Because it obviously doesn't suit my needs. If I try to go slower, there's no guarantee that I still won't get injured.

To make an analogy here, let's take a woodworker's shop. A table saw is an incredibly dangerous piece of equipment, but the way to keep yourself safe from it is simple and intuitive, keep your hands away from the blade. Every single safety protocol revolves around that, and you can pick and choose just how many safeguards you want to use. Push sticks seem mandatory, a blade guard less so.

But you can understand the danger of a table saw. Nobody says, "well you can take all the precautions in the world against a table saw, but you still might get your thumb taken off anyway." But that's the situation with barbell weightlifting.

Sorry if it seemed as if I were proselytizing any one specific program. I respect Rips knowledge, but not always his approach or even his philosophy. Biology and environment are far too individualized to speak in dogma.

My point wasnt even that you should resume barbell training (they're conveniences after all), but that weight training of any kind, especially those following the major points (progressive overload, proper macros, sufficient rest) will deliver.

But hitting those with an injury is an exercise in creativity :)

The last thing I want in this endeavor is creativity.

When I was deadlifting 300 and benching more than I ever did in high school, my life didn't meaningfully change, like at all. And it was expensive to hire that trainer. Cool, yeah, I'm stronger than the average joe. Who cares? I didn't even look all that much better than I do now. You need careful cutting to reduce your body fat percentage to change your appearance. But that's both a pain in the lifestyle and a potential inhibitor to strength gains.

All I want is to be able to trust a program that someone with more knowledge and ability than myself came up with. The last thing I ever want to do with my life is to devise alternative strength training programs for when I get injured.

I'd just rather not train than risk injury.

Startingstrength is very clear about the dangers of lifting to much weight. If your form starts to degrade, or the lift speed slows at the end of the 5 rep set, do not add anymore weight. Stay at that weight, or even decrease the weight until the complete set is done with no slow down and perfect form. If you blindly add five to ten pounds to your lift every session you will get injured, the book warns about this. Progressing slowly is not throwing out the whole program.

I don't think Mark Rippletoe would countenance a program that invariably leads to injury, and would agree that the program needs to be tailored to the individual. If a given individual needs a slower progression to avoid injury, that's the progression they need to follow. In a brief search online, I came across this paragraph:

> "Training is the process of changing an athlete’s physical capacity over time. Its specifics depend on the precise task the athlete will perform, when it will be performed, and how often.... The process must also reflect the current state of physical preparation of the athlete: a freshman in high school doesn’t train like a strong, experienced college senior unless his coach is a fool."

https://startingstrength.com/article/strength_and_prevention...

If you happen to come across something that directly contradicts this, please do share.

There’s no guarantee for perfect prevention of injury, but paying close attention to one’s current state of conditioning and adapting training to fit, you’ve got a much better chance of doing so. Injury sucks. I hope you find a regime that fits for you and helps you reach your fitness goals.

> There’s no guarantee for perfect prevention of injury,

That's the crux of the issue. Without such a guarantee, I will never train with barbells again. It boils down to a difference in priorities. You, and Rip, both seem to think soft tissue injury is an acceptable risk in the quest for strength gains. I do not.

Again, look at a table saw. People can use a table saw their entire lives without introducing a body part to a spinning blade. But you can't train with a barbell, with any amount of good form, with any kind of specialized program, with any kind of expertise at hand, and be 100% positive you will avoid injury.

> "That's the crux of the issue. Without such a guarantee"

I actually meant that very generally. Any physical effort that's going to build muscle has risks: you're applying force somehow and there's a chance for that force to be misapplied and cause injury. The two exceptions I thought of are yoga and swimming (both of which I've also done on occasion).

That said, to each his own. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to the possibility of injuring myself, and I honestly don't think lifting free weights is inherently risky when one pays attention to technique and one's own condition (both in general and during a workout), which is true of any sport or fitness program. But if it doesn't appeal to you or you don't perceive the risks as I do, I'm sure you'll find something that meets your needs.

> I'm pretty conservative when it comes to the possibility of injuring myself, and I honestly don't think lifting free weights is inherently risky when one pays attention to technique and one's own condition (both in general and during a workout), which is true of any sport or fitness program.

I used to think the same way that you do. But I had a trainer. I was not doing the exercises incorrectly. I was not going too fast. I went well above and beyond the standards most people take for safety. And I still got injured. There are no further precautions I could have taken. Ergo, barbell strength training is inherently risky.

Rip is very clear in his book when he says you have to follow the program. He states in very strong language that the program works and if you deviate from it, you're on your own.

I am sure you have had soft tissue injuries that took weeks to months to heal as a matter of course when strength training. You may have looked at those injuries as part and parcel of building athleticism. I don't. I look at them as a sign that you are going past your body's abilities. The domain of elite athletes and competitors. They should have to worry about injuries.

I should be able to train without worry. But I can't. Because it's inherently risky. There's no course of action that you can take in order to train without risk. And it will stay that way until we can come to a full understanding of how soft tissues act under stresses.

Sir, I also have had trainers, as well as others I trained with. Yes, I've have soft tissue injuries. My most severe soft tissue injuries where obtained playing softball. I am particularly cautious with my left knee, as I injured it running, and knees are particularly susceptible to injury in a variety of lifts. Yet, somehow, I've never further injured it lifting (other than taking a day off or two), and that includes squats (ass to grass), deadlifts, cleans, snatches, and bench. By paying attention to how I was lifting, and my condition, and when my form started to become compromised due to exhaustion, I laid off, forgoing the remainder of a workout, perhaps taking a rest day or two, or sometimes even safely dumping during a lift and walking away.

I don't think this is luck: I think this is prudence. Elsewhere you mention you don't think form is key. I know how important it is to keep my knees behind my toes if I'm to properly protect them, and endeavor to always do so. That's form. And it's important. I'm keenly aware of how long it takes to properly heal connective tissue and I'm not willing to unnecessarily risk that. Yet, I lift. And I think I lift safely. My experience has shown that to be the case for me. As for soft-tissue injuries taking weeks or months to heal, no, I've never had such as a result of lifting (and rarely other times). And that's not me working through the pain or whatnot. I'm not that kind of lifter at all. Perhaps I'm not pushing myself hard enough? I'd rather say I'm wisely not pushing myself to injury.

If you find fault with Mark Rippletoe or Starting Strength, fine. Personally, if I find some training regimen that doesn't make sense to me, I don't do it, while recognizing that others might find value in it. I also wouldn't follow a regimen blindly, and, as the quote from Rippletoe I pulled, I have a hard time believing he would think doing so is the only or best way. Regardless, if you want to lift (and I don't think that's the only option), there are other programs out there you might follow, or use as a basis for creating your own.

If you think there are no further precautions you could have taken, fine. I know people are fallible. I'm not perfect, and my trainers haven't been perfect, but together we've been able to train successfully. I know people get injured in all manner of sports, including lifting, for all variety of reasons. Two of the guys I lifted with got injured; one never paid much attention to his form and after he was injured acknowledged his injury was a result of that. Another, while paying attention to form, was always pushing himself, and injured himself lifting heavier than he should have. These are both examples of what happens when you ignore form and your own condition. I suspect you'll take those as examples as lifting being inherently risky. I take them as object lessons of the importance of form and paying attention.

I also know people have all kinds of choices and preferences. You can't even guarantee that you won't badly twist your ankle walking on flat ground, much less down the stairs carrying a load of books, or throwing your back out shoveling snow.

I'm not sure what you've chosen to do in place of lifting, but I certainly hope you find something that you're comfortable with. I find it puzzling that you've throughout this thread (and not only with me) chosen only to find fault with lifting without spending any time describing alternatives you find acceptable, while I (and others) have brought up other choices. I don't think lifting is the end-all be-all, nor is it for everyone. Above you mention you want to lift. People have given you advice on how you might lift safely. If you aren't convinced, I don't think that's skin off of any of our noses. But please don't rail against what others have found useful and enjoyable just because you haven't found success or satisfaction.

As I don't think I've said so explicitly, let me say outright that I'm sorry you've been injured. That sucks. I sincerely hope you find a training regimen that works for you and that you are injury free going forward. Best to you.