I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars.
In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS6jqXS.jpg)
That way, the cyclists can cross the side roads on their own accord, where they are more visible and have their own junction with the side road. Additional, one can set up a traffic light that only turns red for the cars when a cyclist is crossing (i.e. activated by a button).
Also, a way to reduce speed of the motorists without putting in stop signs would be to add chicanes just before the junction, so they are forced to slow down.
Plus, as I've mentioned before (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15977162), I also think it is because UK drivers don't really have enough training with how to deal with bicycles and the fact that they are also participants on the road.
Most roads in the UK are perfectly well designed to handle bike traffic. But they are not designed for the massive quantity of vehicle traffic travelling at relatively high speed on roads originally designed for a different age. Danger to cyclists are a symptom of this wider problem which we have no real solution for.
Also, this particular junction is terribly designed for cars and will result in collisions.
I disagree vehemently. While my experience on UK roads isn't that big, I have not seen any well designed bicycle road. Even the roads in the residential areas I've seen are quite bad; small, many cars parked on them (bad for visibility) and of considerable lacking quality. The bicycle roads in London are just lines painted on top of whatever surface the route encounters: curbs, manholes, poles in the middle of the road, pedestrian areas... Sudden and unmarked bicycle road stops where cyclists can't make out where to go. See also: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11985/city-cycling-in-...
No, if anything, UK roads are specifically not designed to handle bicycle traffic. I wonder what makes you think so?
I was referring to the normal road itself, not the bicycle specific infrastructure. London for example would be fantastic for bikes if vehicles were removed. Most of the roads (even the narrow ones) are exactly the right size to accomodate a large number of bikes, but instead it is used to accomodate a very modest number of private cars. Even if there were no bikes or pedestrians our roads would still be wholly unsuitable for the volume of traffic. The country is riddled with narrow and windy single lane roads with very high commuter traffic.
Yes cyclists in the main have to share the same network. And that network in many places is just overburdened. My fastest route to town is down a country road that has the national speed limit. Local drivers complain about cyclists even using this road - because it 'slows' them down. Anyway the road has become hellish, and I've witnessed enough after/accidents to just bypass the road these days for an inferior, but safer dirt track. The irony of course is that that very same dirt track could make for a very good cycle lane. Build them and they will come. The pedestrians/country side ramblers won't be too impressed mind.
Roads in the UK have generally had some work done on them since the automobile was invented.
Saying that they are designed for bike traffic, when they are continuously rebuilt to the needs of motorised vehicles, is a bit like complaining that it is problematic marching a centuria down the middle of the A59 out of York, given that is what the Romans designed it for.
And we do have a solution to this problem, it is that of creating dedicated bike routes, like the Bristol to Bath cycle path, or where they have to run alongside roads with cars doing 60mph and above, keeping them separated by more than just paint.
> a bit like complaining that it is problematic marching a centuria down the middle of the A59 out of York, given that is what the Romans designed it for.
Thank you, this observation has brightened up an otherwise mundane Wednesday.
There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah.
There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.
Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one.
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It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future.
I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that's a pipe dream.
Until then what else can do we? At least if we require tests for cyclists, like we do for cars, buses and trucks, it might help reduce the number of cyclists doing risky things that perhaps they aren't even aware of?
Sure there are still reckless drivers, but at least they have a license that can be revoked and points that can be fined. How do we ban reckless cyclists from the road?
> Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road?
Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence?
In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists.
This dual effect would have a number of negative impacts. More motorists lead to more congestion, more CO2 emitted and poorer air quality. Poorer air quality leads to health problems, up to and including deaths. CO2 causes climate change, and greater congestion has an economic impact. Fewer people cycling mean fewer people getting exercise, leading to more health problems, up to and including deaths.
I'm confident these problems would overshadow the small improvements in cyclist safety you might gain with a cycling licence requirement. There are better ways to improve cycling safety.
> Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence?
Of course! In a world where there were only cyclists there would still need to be a set of rules that all cyclists are required to follow. Those might include how to behave at intersections, how and when you should overtake other cyclists, and so on. To be allowed to cycle, each cyclist should have demonstrated that they understand and follow these rules by taking some kind of test.
> In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists.
I don't think so. I expect the government to continue to penalize use of motor vehicles in cities such as London. The bicycle will remain the cheaper mode of transport.
I don't. In the United States, bicyclists must follow largely the same rules of the road that drivers of motor vehicles must follow. They can even be ticketed for violating those rules although usually the tickets don't have much in the way of teeth (except things like DUI while biking).
Here in the Bay Area, it's a rare bicyclist that actually follows the rules. Talking to other bicyclists, I've found a large number of them are simply ignorant to the fact that the rules apply to them as well; or they have adopted some bizarre version of the rules or a sense of entitlement.
I could talk anecdotes for hours, but one particularly egregious example is a bicyclist who showed up to a 4-way stop after I was already moving through the intersection, cut through my path, and gave me the finger, all without even slowing down, much less stopping.
Requiring bicyclists to pass at least a basic test would go a long way towards clearing things up or at least changing the "bicyclists don't have to follow the rules" culture that exists here, making the roads safer for themselves, walkers/runners, and drivers alike.
Forcing bicycles to follow rules designed for cars is often silly and sometimes actively dangerous. For example, the bike route from downtown to my house involves making a left turn on a busy street. For a mile and a half, the street is nice and wide, with generous bike lanes in both directions - sensible and safe. But the moment I have to turn left? By car laws, I need to stop in the middle of the road, with traffic coming up behind me (often at 40+mph), and wait until I have a clear path to turn left, which can take a while. This is deadly.
So I do the illegal. I turn right on the quiet side street and immediately u-turn to the stop sign, to wait to cross both sides. It's not a dangerous maneuver for me or anyone else, although it would be dangerous for a car to do so.
See the problem?
edit: A car waiting to turn left is in considerably less danger. It's much easier for traffic coming from behind to see, so it's less likely to be hit. And if it is hit, the driver is protected by the car itself. At worst, the car gets totaled. But a bicycle hit at 40mph? The cyclist is likely going to be killed. It's not just silly to follow the car law - it's hazardous.
I think one the purposes of traffic law is to make the behavior of all participants predictable. My only issue with cyclists is I feel I can never predict what they're going to do.
There's usually laws about how far you can see, how far you have to be from an intersection etc.
"My only issue with cyclists is I feel I can never predict what they're going to do."
This is not entirely the fault of the cyclists, it's the fault of the law givers
The laws are not written in such a way that it appears safe to people using bikes to follow all the rules, so everyone is compelled to come up with their own rules. The build of roads is the same; a small detour for a person in a car can become quite substantial for a person on a bike.
At the moment the laws get written and the roads get design assuming almost everyone is going to use a car, and then they say "well, is it physically possible to follow it on a bike?" - if they consider bikes at all.
If governments wanted people to ride bikes predictably, they must consider them when crafting the laws. It's probably quite okay for people riding bikes to act differently than people driving cars: just like people walking around behave differently. It will then take some time to spread the word and regain the trust of cyclists. But it's a more helpful solution than saying "they must follow rules and infrastructure designed for cars in the same way as cars, except that they must not delay me: that way they will be predictable and safe".
Depends on the local law. In some cities, this is bike-legal, and even officially encouraged as "indirect left turn": see the side-street bike box, intended just for this: on your green, you cross the side street, turn right-then-left into the box and wait for a green signal to cross the main road. https://prahounakole.cz/wp-content/pnk/uploads/2013/03/pruhy...
Your u-turn sounds legal, even in a car, but I'd have to see the area and know the state to be sure. Regardless, bicyclists are already required to follow the law. Having a required license would simply help make sure bicyclists are aware of the law and provide a tool for law enforcement to keep the most egregious offenders (e.g. stop sign runners, cyclists traveling against traffic, etc.) from causing problems.
Why? Requiring a license doesn't seem to make car drivers any better. And most bicyclists already have a driver's license. Those who don't tend to be kids, or poor (having a driver's license is privilege, although a common one). Forcing them to need a license will just create more illegal bicyclists.
Law enforcement can already ticket a bicyclist, license or no license. Bicyclists already know when they're breaking the law.
I disbelieve your proposed solution would actually solve any problems.
> Why? Requiring a license doesn't seem to make car drivers any better.
Then let's advocate for getting rid of licensing since it has a cost and no benefit. I don't think you really mean that, do you? I've got plenty of ideas for a better licensing system for driving.
> Forcing them to need a license will just create more illegal bicyclists.
Illegal drivers face consequences that licensed drivers do not face. The same would be true for illegal bicyclists. I fail to see this as a bad thing.
> Bicyclists already know when they're breaking the law.
They don't know. They might know if they did it in a car they would be breaking the law. They also believe themselves to be incapable of creating a dangerous situation. (Quick anecdote: I was on a jury for a civil case where a bicyclist admitted on the stand he ran into a car that, by all evidence and even his own testimony, was stopped. The bicyclist had also run a stop sign. He felt the driver was at fault for the accident.)
Being a bicyclist myself, I assumed everyone knew as well. Back home, all my cycling friends knew and followed the rules. When I started cycling with people here, I found out they really don't know that the rules apply to them, they think the rules are different in some way, or they just have some really bizarre notions. AFAICT, it's baked into the culture. I mean, people don't know basic stuff like that you can get a DUI on a bike or that you can't ride on the sidewalk...
A bicycle-specific license (or maybe an endorsement on a DL) could focus on bicycle-specific issues, with basic questions like "I have to stop for a stop sign on a bicycle. T/F" and more 'complex' stuff like how bicycle lanes work at intersections with people making right turns. Drivers and cyclists alike seem to have no clue that the driver should enter the bicycle lane (after yielding to bicycles in the lane) for his turn and that the bicyclist should not try to pass him on the right.
Not sure where that is - out here (central Europe) the examples like "no DUI or sidewalks allowed" are known almost universally. Of course, knowledge won't stop you - a completely drunk (0.2 BAC) driver just killed a pedestrian a few days ago: he knew it was blatantly illegal, had a valid driver's license to certify that, but went out for a drive just the same.
It's a rare driver that actually follows the rules. Speed limits are almost never followed. I frequently see drivers go through a light that has already turned red, roll through a stop sign without fully stopping or come dangerously close to hitting a pedestrian to whom they were supposed to yield the right of way.
Drivers routinely kill other drivers or pedestrians through carelessness. Few if any cyclists ever kill someone else. If anything we need more rigorous tests for drivers, not for cyclists.
What I loathe most about cyclists as a pedestrian, (I am also a cyclist and also a driver) is when they ignore pedestrians crossing a street and simply swerve between people --at speed. Kids are unpredictable and they don't have the same sense as adults, yet, I've had prickish cyclists ride on through as if nothing.
In a world where there were only pedestrians, would you want them to start having licences? Per mile, walking is exceedingly dangerous compared to other modes of transport.
1. Pedestrians move at much slower speeds than bicycles. If two pedestrians walk into each at 5mph the damage is much lower than if two cyclists collide at 30mph.
2. Since pedestrians move much slower than bicycles they can manoeuvre much faster. The stopping distance for a walking pedestrian is less than 1m, the stopping distance for a bycicle travelling at 30mph is much greater.
3. If two pedestrians walk into each other the chance of collateral damage is quite low. It's quite easy to walk around two people that just walked into each other.
If two cyclists collide, there is a good chance that cyclists on each side of them will get caught up in the collision, crash and injure themselves too. A good example of this are the crashes seen on Tour de France.
Of course, if people started running as a mode of transport it would become increasingly dangerous, and you'd have to start separating the walkers from the runners as the damage from a potential collision would be much greater.
> A good example of this are the crashes seen on Tour de France.
Basing rules for cyclists on the Tour de France is like basing rules for automobiles on F1 or Nascar. Normal commuters just don't reach anything close to Tour de France speeds. Most would be lucky to even maintain a third of that speed without the help of a hill.
Most commuters will be going about 10 mph. Even getting hit with a car at that speed will only cause an injury at all about 25% of the time, a serious injury about 15% of the time and is almost never fatal[1]. A bicycle will barely do anything at that speed.
By all means add special rules for using bicycles at unusually high speeds, but don't act like normal commuters are going to be going that speed.
Ok, so licences for runners then, as you may need to have a test to see that people know the rules and presumably ban people from running if they break them.
Since running is largely recreational most runners avoid congested areas on purpose. If this changes it will have to be revisited. Nice strawman though.
Was trying more for reducto ad absurdum. I didn't come up with the idea of having laws to separate runners from walkers, you did. I was just exploring the enforcement mechanism for such a suggestion.
Well I think the issue is that unlike the pavement, the roads are much more stringently regulated with sign posts, markings and lights.
For as long as cyclists have to cycle on the roads as we know them a cyclist should be required to demonstrate that they understand the signs and rules of the road. That could be by presenting their official drivers license, or, should they not have one, be required to take a theory test. I think that would be a sensible first step.
You could then imagine a practical test for hazard perception, efficient use of gearing and safe filtering through queues of traffic.
Naturally, people don't walk on the road, and pavements don't have the same kind of mandatory control flow unless they intersect with the road, and most children are taught how to cross the road from a young age.
I walk on the road all the time, having grown up in an area with plenty of rural roads without pavements.
I would get into a ton of shit should I visit anywhere that had jaywalking laws, though in the places they exist and are enforced, they presumably get by without a dedicated licensing and testing regime.
Dude, you're missing the point. You do not walk on the road the same way a cyclist cycles on the road. You do not walk up to T junctions, indicate with your arms and turn left. You neither come to a set of traffic lights in the same way. Cyclists have to do all these things.
And they are somehow managing to do so currently without licences.
One thing to consider is how much effect licensing has on car safety anyway. Mexico city has no test requirement at all, you just pay for permission to drive rather than sitting any test, while Peru has more road deaths per capita, despite needing a practical test, written test and medical certificate before you get behind the wheel.
In so many discussions on HN I see this silly myth of 30mph bicycles.
Did you know that in Sweden, the legal maximum speed of a electric bike is 15mph? Anything faster and it is classified as a moped and you need a driving license. Did you also know that the average speed of a bike in a city in the Netherlands is around 9mph? In context, a common running speed is 8mph.
So here is the stage. Two bikes are traveling more than 300% faster than the average speed and about 200% the legal limit of a electric bike, and they collide. My question would not be if that situation is safer if two pedestrians walk into each other, but rather why two bikes is traveling that fast in the first place.
Not all cyclist ride one speed "gentleman/lady" bikes. Many travel upto 30mph. That's a safety concern. There have been a number of cases of cyclists running over pedestrians resulting in serious injury, so it's not inconceivable to require licensing.
Licensing doesn't stop people driving cars from charging into others, killing them. It's not going to stop bike riders who are inclined to drive with such recklessness that they endanger their own life from driving with that recklessness
> In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists.
Most cyclists are licensed drivers, and a test for cycling licensing would, at worst, probably be no more difficult than that for driving. The impact on the number of cyclists would be minimal.
A bicycle can injure or kill a pedestrian or cause a motor vehicle accident. What is the justification for licensing motor vehicle driving but not bicycling when done on public roads? I cannot think of anyone who fails a motor vehicle licensing test that I consider competent to not cause others harm while operating a bicycle on public roads. I would much rather suffer the 'dangers' of increased carpooling or public transit use.
No, they are not. Atleast outside the US they're not. I know a significant number of people, myself included, who are experienced cyclists who have never driven a car in their life. Cycling is far more common in urban areas where driving is impractical or amongst young people who can't afford or don't want to drive.
You are correct in pointing out that it doesn't have much to do with the rest of my argument. I posed it as a question because I think a lot of the opinions around this issue (like many or most issues) stem from emotions. In this case I think this argument comes from a sense of fairness: motorists have to pay tax / have insurance / pass a test; so why shouldn't cyclists? I think if you consider whether we would even be asking that question if there were no motorists, you can get around the "fairness" point of view.
Interesting. I wasn't coming from that angle. I think cycling would be less risky if there weren't cars on the road, so I would see less of a reason to have cyclists take a test and get a license if they didn't have to mix with auto traffic.
Requiring licensing for cyclists could indirectly result in more deaths depending on the change in other behaviours.
Off the top of my head, walking is more risky per mile for the traveller than cycling while driving is safer per mile, but increases your risk of obesity and DVT and is more dangerous for everyone else in terms of pollution and accidents.
> Until then what else can do we? At least if we require tests for cyclists, like we do for cars, buses and trucks, it might help reduce the number of cyclists doing risky things that perhaps they aren't even aware of?
Statistics show that in the large majority of cases of accidents between cycles and motor vehicles, the driver of the motor vehicle is at fault. Requiring a license for cycles will do just about nothing to fix this. Just yesterday I was nearly run over by a car turning left into the oncoming cycle lane and by another one who thought that the pedestrians traffic light applies to bicycles. My knowledge that I was correct in both cases did not help the least bit.
So maybe yearly retraining for drivers of motor vehicles would be a better move.
>Statistics show that in the large majority of cases of accidents between cycles and motor vehicles, the driver of the motor vehicle is at fault. Requiring a license for cycles will do just about nothing to fix this.
As a regular cyclist, I would say that requiring a license from cyclists would certainly do something to fix this: make cyclists more aware of it.
Over here, about 2/3 of collisions between motor vehicle and bicycle are fault of the motor vehicle driver. But that leaves 1/3 where cyclist errors or breaches of traffic code are reason, which is also significant.
And then there are actually quite many cyclist accidents that do not involve a motor vehicle.
> Over here, about 2/3 of collisions between motor vehicle and bicycle are fault of the motor vehicle driver. But that leaves 1/3 where cyclist errors or breaches of traffic code are reason, which is also significant.
You are assuming that this 1/3rd is due to lack of knowledge - I question that assertion. And still, regular retraining of motor vehicle drivers would still be a better investment. They choose to move a ton of steel around in a manner that's potentially dangerous to others and they cause twice as many accidents, despite having a license requirement.
> And then there are actually quite many cyclist accidents that do not involve a motor vehicle.
Those tend to be less severe. Last years stats for Berlin: All cyclists killed were killed in an accident with a motor vehicle. Most common causes: dooring, right turn accidents, mostly trucks, one cyclist running a red light.
Likewise, that 2/3 is mostly not due to lack of knowledge. Over here (Finland), driving license training and testing nowadays has increased "attitude" training, as that is seen becoming more important than knowledge of traffic rules etc.
Here, a motor vehicle was involved in 62 % of all bicyclist deaths over the period 2011-2015 (116 cases). Motor vehicle was not the guilty party in all of those (but in roughly 2/3 of them). So, motor vehicle driver was at fault in about 40 % of cyclist deaths.
> So, motor vehicle driver was at fault in about 40 % of cyclist deaths.
Without any breakdown of who was at fault in the other accidents your stats still indicate that in comparison between bikes and motor vehicles, motor vehicle drivers are still twice as likely to be at fault. Retrain them before you retrain cyclists.
In a large majority of the remaining cases it is the cyclists who is at fault. There are a few cases where a pedestrian causes a cyclist death, but they are rare. The list includes those cyclists who are run over by a train, for instance, but we don't really expect trains to swerve to avoid cyclists, and such a collision is the cyclist's fault.
I don't necessarily say that requiring a license from cyclists is what I want. However, I do think that some training and education of cyclists would certainly help. I also see some cyclists who have clear attitude problems. So retraining - or perhaps re-orienting - everyone would help.
Because it’s an inefficient use of time and money. All that you’ll achieve is less people cycling and that’s exactly the opposite of what you want. Think about the practicality of a cycle license: do you expect a 6 year old to pass a test before cycling? A ten year old to carry along a license when he goes out? You can’t even fine them because the statuary limit in germany is 14. You can’t fine the parents either because parents are not obliged to keep their kids in sight all the time. Adults are already very likely to have a drivers license, should they now need a cycling license on top.
So make better use of the time and money: create safe infrastructure or - as a better investment train those that already have a license requirement and that insist on moving around tons of steel. Maybe increase the number of hours in school that deal with safe conduct in traffic. Or - gasp - fine the people blocking cycle lanes and otherwise endangering cyclist hard.
So the conclusion here is that cycling is fine just how it is, based on a cost/benefit analysis, and that motor car users need to be regularly examined and educated to ensure good road safety for everyone?
no, that's not the conclusion. I didn't bring up the "let's have a license requirement for cyclists idea." My point is that this is not a change that would improve cycling in a way that outweighs the negative effects. It's a bullshit idea that gets floated from time to time.
Improve cycling by all means, but use something that is effective: better infrastructure, education, enforcement. The Berlin police introduced a police squad on cycles a few years ago in one district and that has proven to be a very effective method: For one, they enforce road rules for people on bicyclist, but the major effect is that they remove cars from infrastructure dedicated to bicycles which in turn actually enables cyclists to use that infrastructure and makes people less likely to ride on the sidewalk, for example.
No, not in this case. It's not like people don't know the rules and the majority of people get killed despite being absolutely in the right and having done nothing wrong. How do you fix that with education? The dooring accident that nearly killed me happened on a cycle lane that I was by law required to use. The car driver just opened the door into the oncoming cycle traffic. How could you educate me better in a way that would have prevented me from making a hard impact with that door? Witnesses told me they didn't even expect me to get up again. How would educating me help prevent the three close passes I had today, especially the one where the car driver thought I'd have to squeeze into the dooring zone? The one that passed me when I was doing 30 in a max 30 zone? The close pass yesterday where the car driver didn't manage to pass me before the oncoming traffic was there, squeezing me against the parked cars? I was in the right, still I'd be the one dead. Should I yield and crawl? Cycling isn't a sport for me, it's my preferred mode of transport, I really want to get somewhere and I don't want to spend ages doing so.
Calling for education of cyclists has a strong smell of victim blaming. Oh, sorry, he's dead. If he'd been better educated, he might have known that he was in the right.
Because, while it does occasionally happen, the risk of a cyclist killing or seriously injuring another road user is much lower than the risk of a car driver doing so. Unlicensed cyclists are a much lower risk to other road users than licensed drivers; if anything we should be looking to impose stricter licensing requirements on drivers.
They're still a risk. Not knowing the rules can cause a motorist who did absolutely nothing wrong to kill said cyclist or swerve away from the cyclist and kill someone else not even involved, all because of a negligent cyclist.
That said, demanding a license for cyclists I agree is completely unreasonable.
In my country all school children are taught the rules of the road at traffic school where they ride their bikes around a miniature road layout that comprises of most road scenarios.
What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. Today, drivers who have their license revoked or car impounded still find ways to drive cars, at least in the US. The barrier to picking up a new bike after having yours impounded by police is far lower. If it's forcing a baseline requirement for skills and knowledge, well we've already seen how well that's worked out for drivers (most drivers suck at it).
Licensing cyclists seems like a feel good idea to make things "fair". The fact is, things can never be fair between to such disparate classes of vehicles. Can someone explain how a world with licensed cyclists would be fundamentally different than today?
> What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists.
I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like.
I don't know what any of the road signs mean and I have no experience or training in hazard perception and collision avoidance. The law doesn't require me to. If I tried to do the same thing in a car I'd be arrested.
In a typical city scenario, a car has KE of 1/2 (2000 kg) (50 kph)^2 ~= 2e5 Joules. A bicyclist has 1/2 (100 kg) (30 kph)^2 ~= 3.5e3 Joules. Almost 100x less capable of inflicting damage on a typical pedestrian. Add onto this that bikes are way more maneuverable, less collision surface area, are totally exposed to the same forces exerted on the pedestrian with which they may collide... your comparison with cars is intellectually dishonest because you are comparing a human on top of a 10-20kg machine with a human inside a 2000kg metal box with an incredible array of safety features for the driver and hardly any for pedestrians outside.
Also, 30 kph is practically the top speed for a majority of cyclists - there's a level, narrow, short (200 m), 30-max-speed, all-traffic (except pedestrians) tunnel on my usual route. Do I temporarily reach 30 kph there, in order to be polite and get out of there as fast as possible? Yes, with some difficulty. (Do drivers honk at me for being unbearably slow while going the max legal speed? Yes.)
So, I'd say a typical city scenario is <20 kph, more than halving the estimate.
> I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like.
Sure. Realistically, how much danger do people doing this represent to society? There are plenty of dangerous things that people could do, but the heavy machinery of law should be reserved for actual problems rather than hypothetical ones.
> If I tried to do the same thing in a car I'd be arrested.
And quite rightly, because if you weren't there's a good chance you'd kill people. Car drivers kill a lot of people, they're something like the 4th biggest cause of death in the UK IIRC.
Driver or cyclist, if you fail to navigate that intersection safely and correctly you will be cited (or injured or killed). How does requiring a license for cyclists solve this problem? You mentioned that driving without a license will get you arrested. This is true, but only after you've committed a violation, unless your country has random driver's license checkpoints (mine doesn't). We can already cite cyclists for moving violations today. Licensing doesn't change anything.
The law does require you to understand road signs and behave accordingly. It doesn't require you to get a piece of paper from a bureaucrat to attest to it.
I very much doubt that you would be arrested if you tried to drive a car without a license. Anecdotally, I've never had my driving license checked by a traffic officer. The large number of undocumented residents who are presumptively driving without a valid license is another point.
> I very much doubt that you would be arrested if you tried to drive a car without a license.
Without a valid driving license you will not be able to get insurance, unless you stole an insured vehicle from your parents or off the street.
Patrol cars in the UK and Europe have cameras that read number plates and check a database against all insured vehicles. If the car is not insured you will get pulled over, upon which you will be asked to present your driving license.
The number of people on bikes running up the inside of vehicles on narrow streets is too high. I’d walk through Bank (a junction in London) 5 times a week and I’d see time and time again people riding up the inside of tipper trucks and buses indicating to turn left. It happens all the time. I’d witness 3-4 near misses a month.
Rule 73 of the Highway Code:
> Pay particular attention to long vehicles which need a lot of room to manoeuvre at corners. Be aware that drivers may not see you. They may have to move over to the right before turning left. Wait until they have completed the manoeuvre because the rear wheels come very close to the kerb while turning. Do not be tempted to ride in the space between them and the kerb.
Let's be careful not to conflate two things: conforming to red lights isn't a goal in itself, safety is the goal. A lot of drivers get exercised about "cyclists running red lights" in cases that are actually safer than the alternatives, e.g. cyclists crossing a junction ahead of motor traffic when the junction doesn't have a dedicated light phase for cyclists.
Cyclists running up the inside mostly happens because waiting in a queue of traffic at a light or junction is very dangerous for a cyclist; stopping and starting are inherently dangerous and made much more so when you're starting in the middle of a queue that's anxious to start moving. In many cases road design endorses this - you'll see junctions with a cycle lane on the left running up to the light, and cyclists are expected to pass on the left even when a vehicle in line is turning left.
The solution that I've seen work best is a marked cycle-only box immediately before the junction - that provides cyclists a place to wait for the light, but it also makes for a clear dividing line between the section where cyclists are expected to pass the queue on the left versus the entry into the junction where that would be unsafe. Unfortunately cars often occupy those boxes and are seemingly not penalised for doing so. More of those boxes and more enforcement of those that exist would help, IMO, as would giving cyclists a dedicated light phase (as is done at e.g. some of the junctions on CS2) to let them clear the junction before motorists enter.
In terms of Bank specifically, it's an outlier: it's an extremely complex junction (7 roads) that simply has too much traffic demand for the space available. The junction has now been restricted to buses, cycles and pedestrians only during the daytime, and there's talk of removing the buses as well. That's appropriate: it's both safer and more efficient in terms of person throughput than allowing cars to use the very limited space there.
waiting in a queue of traffic at a light or junction
is very dangerous for a cyclist
When I'm approaching traffic lights and there's a queue of traffic and no bike box, I stop my bike at the tail of the queue, in the middle of the lane - just like I would on my motorbike or in my car.
I'm curious as to what you think the danger is in that situation?
A driver coming up behind you as you're starting to set off ( or immediately after you've fallen down) when the queue ahead of you is already moving. Somehow you tend to blend into the queue visually - the driver doesn't see you as separate from the vehicle in front of you, and doesn't realise you're still there when the vehicle starts moving (or does realise you're there, but rushes past you unsafely) - and the risk of falling over is much higher as you're starting off than at any other point.
Personally I see running red lights as a much higher accident risk than drivers of stationary vehicles failing to see me when I'm stopped right in front of them.
It's not the stationary drivers I'd worry about, it's those arriving behind them.
"Running red lights" with no further context seems to describe something extremely dangerous, but many specific classes of running red lights are completely safe.
Depends on the length of the queue. I find if I'm too far back from the intersection, cars will get up to speed and want to overtake me before I get through. If I continue to take the lane the driver behind me is likely to start honking and/or pass me dangerously. If I move over then I risk getting hooked as I go through the intersection.
So I find that it's usually safer to filter to the front at intersections. Even in the absence of a bike box I can squeeze into the crosswalk and get ahead of the lead car, allowing me to go safely through.
I'm also surprised by that. I do not feel safe trying to filter through traffic unless I know the light periods very well. And in a queue is one of the places I feel safest starting and stopping. I can accept an argument about how a slow bicycle is wobbly, but from a pure power standpoint, there is much less acceleration involved in a queue than in many other cases. If motorists have a problem with cyclists, its often about acceleration.
I generally wait with the traffic also when there is no bike lane/box. The only thing I ever worry about is getting hit from behind by some idiot not paying attention. I do try to mitigate this by turning my bike at an angle so that I look a little bigger.
This is all dependent on the traffic/intersection though, things vary depending on the circumstances.
It's a mistake to conflate cyclists filtering through traffic and undertaking.
The Highways Code specifically mentions that motorcycles do this also Rule 88 [1] and tells drivers that that they should be aware of other road users including cyclists doing this too [2] Rule 21.
In most of the US (it varies by state), moped riders (where mopeds are generally defined as motorcycles below a certain engine capacity and top speed, often 30 or 40 mph) do not need a license.
You're being silly, but this does impact the fastest growing segment of new bicycle riders: e-bikes. Right now, most states classify them as mopeds and may or may not require licensing accordingly, usually not. I don't know if there are any stats yet, since they are relatively new, but these e-bikes seem to me more dangerous in the hands of inexperienced riders than a traditional bike.
> Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road?
I don't think cyclists should need licenses to co-habit the roads with other vehicles. However, I think road safety education should be mandatory, perhaps in schools? When I attended (ordinary state) primary school we were all put through the RoSPA[0] Cycling Proficiency Test[1] at around ages 8-10. This was back in ~1977/78 so I'm showing my age :)
As I remember it the course was good fun. You got to use your own bike - I had a Raleigh Chopper :) - and the instructor set up different road layouts in the school playground to negotiate - he even had traffic lights and road signs. We were then lead out on the actual road where the instructor shepherded us through various real life challenges. We were even taught to perform "life saver" looks over our shoulders before carrying out any manoeuvres. At the end of the course we sat a test and were given wee metal triangular RoSPA badges.
I'm not sure if this is still a thing in schools now (I don't have any kids of my own), but I think it should be. Even basic education such as this prepared me to be a better driver, biker (i.e. life saver looks) and pedestrian.
Because they are not zooming around in a several hundred kilogram steel box? Also, I regularly walk on or over roads, with no license whatsoever. Outside, everyone's participating in traffic, one way or another.
Even so, a bike is capable of moving at speeds high enough to cause severe harm to the rider or pedestrians. What if the threshold for a test was based on the average speeds of the vehicle?
Have there been a lot of pedestrian deaths (or serious injuries) caused by cyclists in your area? How does it compare to deaths/accidents caused by collisions with cars?
I'm also pretty sure that most of those accidents could be avoided by having better cycling infrastructures.
There have been a couple. However, when it does happen it gets a lot of media attention, the most recent incident taking place on Oxford Street, a popular shopping street in London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41263926
I'd say the licensing regimes should be set at a level that's proportionate to the number of deaths of others caused by that kind of vehicle, i.e. consider the number of other road users killed per year by every 10000 cars/bikes/bus-passengers/pedestrians/.... (perhaps as a QALY calculation to take into account serious injuries as well). Modes where that number is higher should have their licensing requirements made stricter, modes where that number is lower should have their licensing requirements relaxed.
If we'd be playing billiards you'd be right. But in traffic the objects are driven by humans. And then speed becomes a factor.
Speed and impulse. Speed is a factor in the risk of collision (since our brain has limited real-time processing chops), and then when a collision happens, impulse is indeed an important consideration, together with another factor: protection level.
In a world with just those three factors, eg no traffic rules or speed limits, a car makes lots of accidents (because it's fast) and when they happen, a lot of energy and thus destruction are involved (because they're heavy), and also, while the car driver is protected by his/her big heavy steel box, the collision counterpart - a cyclist - might not be.
This asymmetry trinity is exactly why we should have (and have, to some extent) road rules and license regulations to level the playing field so that the outcome of the equation moves a bit in favour of the slow, light, and less well collision-insulated.
So if one endeavours to go inside a heavy (dangerous to others) steel box (that nicely protects you) that goes fast (you will have less time to react, and moreover, you "steal" other drivers attention because they constantly have to be on the lookout for "is there something fast coming? is there something fast coming?") - then yes, the onus is on this car driver to be responsible and submit to road rules, licensing, and heavy fines.
Then there's other non-collision factors that make current man-driven combustion engine cars look very silly indeed: they are noisy, pollute, take up a lot of space even when not moving (which is most of the time) and require expensive infrastructure. That leads us to ask ourselves - who on earth designed this system? And in the question belies the answer: no one did - there were coaches, we put a petrol engine in it, and went from there without any vision.
With today's technology and insight, given a blank slate (there are no roads, no cities, no nothing - just a can full of people that need to work and live and travel, to be poured out on the green fields where we will build our infra) , NO ONE would design a transportation system this silly.
You're getting downvoted but here in Denmark while you don't need a license to cycle, if you have a driver's license you can lose it for breaking rules while cycling. Cyclists being familiar with the rules is just as important as car drivers.
Who says they don't have one? I drive, cycle, walk, and even use public transport. (Yes, yes, I should pick one of them and stick to it regardless of applicability, I know ;o))
Haven't you heard? We have motorists, cyclists and pedestrians. Not "a person driving a car", "a person riding a bike", "a person walking in public". You must identify with and be one!
Because the speed and the weight of the vehicles driven by motorists are generally so large that they tend to kill people in a collision. The same is not true for cyclists.
A pedestrian struck by a bicycle can absolutely be killed. It's not an uncommon occurrence, and it doesn't happen more often only because it's easier for a pedestrian to get out of the way of a bicyclist.
Operating a vehicle requires a licence because it is a lot of responsibility. You can kill people or do serious damage to property if you are unable to operate one safely. Riding a bike is something children can do. Do you suggest a licence to walk as well?
I would like to see a road bicycle test, though. But it would be for potential motorists, not cyclists. I think if you want to operate a motorvehicle on the road you must be able to demonstrate an ability to operate a bicycle on the road.
Wow... Children can also drive cars, ride motorbikes, fly planes, perform surgery. That doesn't mean it's in society's best interest to let them without some training or examination beforehand.
The difficulty in riding a bike in a city doesn't come from having to control the vehicle. Danger doesn't come from the ability to maim someone with a bike. It comes from hugely complex set of rules, dynamic nature of traffic, high speed high pressure decision making necessary, sensory overload and fatigue, self control, competition on the road etc.
That's what you need to take into account to navigate safely.
But children do manage to ride bikes safely all over the world every day without any formal training. On the other hand, adults who have had training and are licensed to drive still manage to cause accidents.
Not in city centers on busy multilane inrersections, at least not in my country. We arent talking about riding a bike in a park or in the suburbs. And kids cause a lot of traffic accidents as well, regardless of their mode of transportation... Nothing will eliminate accidents. Training and systems can minimize it though.
I imagine a major reason cyclists don't require licenses is because it would cost a lot compared to the benefit it would confer.
You could push the cost onto cyclists that want the license of course.
In the US the "exam" that most drivers have taken is so stupidly easy that it doesn't really mean much that they earned their license. This is less true for the young people that have had to do more work to get a license, but they aren't the majority of drivers yet.
They should but the reason it will never happen is political. Just look at the comments here. Dozens of cyclists throwing a fit because you have the gall to suggest someone operating a vehicle on a public road might be subject to licensure. They'd never vote for a politician supporting that, and they'd work to defeat any who did. On the flip side, the folks who agree with this are not going to vote for a politician they otherwise wouldn't simply because they suppose bicyclist licensure.
It's the same reason why you need a dog license but not a cat license in many areas of the US. The cat people will freak out when you suggest a $10 license and nobody else gives a shit.
Ahh.... It's actually happened. Various governments have promised to introduce licensing schemes. I don't think there's any current ones around. New South Wales had a plan, but they abandoned it just before implementing it. Not because of the voting power of the lycra lobby, but because it's bad public policy.
As for how good an idea it is to have a licensing system for people travelling without lethal weapons, papers please! It's a fantastic idea. You probably also should have a chip in you so the government can track you and see if you've travelled to a part of town you don't have a licence to be in. After all, we've got to cut down on crime.
Statistically the best thing for cyclist safety is increasing the number of cyclists on the roads. So any safety rules that decrease the number of cyclists (like requiring a license) has to be offset against the increased risk caused by having less cyclists. This is the reason that mandatory helmet use makes roads less safe for cyclists.
The other aspect is that you still have pedestrians, who may have little or no knowledge of road safety, so you still have to train drivers to be extremely careful regardless.
Pedestrians are, with the exception of some rural areas, provided with dedicated carriage such as a pavement or sidewalk. The rules of crossing the road are well defined and in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking.
There is no such thing as jaywalking in the UK, it's neither an offence (with the exception of motorways, which also regulate the type of vehicle which may enter), nor a term that's widely used or understood.
Outside of cities, there are lots of roads without pavements (not just in super-rural areas). Walking on them is normal, and people know how (e.g. always walk on the right, facing oncoming traffic).
And I very much hope it stays that way. Cars should not rule our public spaces.
> in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking.
Not quite, however you may be ticketed, if you happen to do it in front of a grumpy officer. I have only heard of it happening to a friend of a friend and the fine was under 40 euros.
In Baltics you’re certainly fined the moment you take your first step on the pavement. It started with a war against reckless driving and ended up in this state as of now.
I've lived in the countryside for 14 years. I don't walk on the roads where I live. The roads are narrow and there is no place to walk as the side of the roads are raised embankments built from tree roots. Looks like this: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/C41G6T/country-lane-with-trees-form...
The roads are narrow, so you don't walk? What? That makes no sense.
Living somewhere that you can't even walk around sounds like some kind of prison. How do you get around? It sounds like you are unable to get around without burning fossil fuels. How does that make you feel?
sad to see your comment down voted but there are laws that bicyclist have to obey and they should prove they know them. this would include showing they understand the protective gear requirements and how proper attire protects them.
it isn't uncommon near some bike parks where I am for groups to block intersections which only serves to aggravate drivers. The are required in many areas to pass through intersections like all other vehicles, alternating with those waiting on the cross roads.
the bikes should be tagged to indicate they have the proper reflectors and lighting. there are still too many riding without reflective clothing let alone any type of lighting in low light conditions. I ride, I hate the idiots that ruin the sport
I imagine your suggestions would cause more deaths than they would prevent by sucking all the joy out of cycling, causing more people to just use a car instead, leading to more dangerous accidents and more obesity.
I think a requirement of a year's worth of cycling on the road before you can have a driver's license would increase cycling awareness significantly.
Nothing raises your appreciation of the difficulties faced by a group more than belonging to that group in a real and physical manner on a daily basis.
Not that I think it would be implementable: Humans are remarkably good at rejecting constraints.
Interestingly I've become a much better cyclist after obtaining my driver's license. It made me very aware of the fact that you can't see anything from cars (compared to the elevated and pillar-free view from a bike) so you have to be aware of that fact as a cyclist and react accordingly. Some things cyclists do without thinking much are stupidly dangerous and I think this often is the result of cyclists and drivers being two different sets of people.
Also I got to know the rules of the road much better than before and could adjust by behaviour to follow the law. I didn't go over red lights before, but there are a bunch of other things where cyclists don't tend to follow the rules of the road and IMHO it creates a much less stressful environment for everyone if they just did so.
This is a very important difference and that’s the main reason I yearn for self-driving cars. Current vehicles are horrible to see where you are driving and drivers are in denial about it. At least, when you have engineers trying to represent a scene, they gut reaction is “No way I am dealing with such a slim view, I”m putting the camera where it can see what’s happening.”
That was basically one of my first reactions in my first hour of driving. »I can't possibly make a turn here. I don't see where I'm going.« That feeling fades over time and one (at least I still do with just a bit over two years of driving) adapts by going slower, looking more carefully, and especially looking for potential dangers before it's too late. Often (not always, as the article details) it's possibly to see ahead of time what can become problematic, e.g. overtaking a cyclist that you might have to yield to 100 meters later when making a turn. But it takes practice and I'm sure different driving instructors and different drivers place varying amounts of emphasis on such things.
The amount of times whilst pulling out of my driveway that I've thought "I wish I had a cameras pointing left and right from about where my indicators are" is quite large.
It's always worse when large vans are parked up and down the road so visibility is obscured.
I live in Belgium. We have a lot of cyclists here, but I think 80% of them don't know their weak position on the road.
As my father said, "They think they are terminators, that if a car crashes into them, the car will break and they will be OK". And that's what I almost always see on the road.
We have a lot of cycling lanes, thank god for that, but sometimes they are not in a good state so all those people tend to share the roadway with other cars. I almost driven into 1 because he was riding a bicycle on a forest road where you can drive 90km/h in a turn.
I do realise how vulnerable cyclists are, I've driven my whole youth to school with one. As a cyclist, I always look when crossing the road, or just around me, to realise where I am and where other people are and do not trust other cars. But most people ignore logic and common sense and just cycle on a roadway.
I still think it's a good idea to have some education on how to use the road. I mean, if a car crashes into a cyclist, the car will have a minor dent, but you can break a lot of things or even die. It's so easy to think before driving on a road because the cycling lane is in bad state.
PS: I also understand that there are bad chauffeurs on the road too, but from my experience, far less than bad cyclists...
Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist. You're the one responsible as long as cyclists are allowed on the road (and for good reason). For example, on the tiny winding mountain roads of Corsica, the speed limit is generally 90 km/h but it would be crazy for a non-local to go more than 50 or 60 km/h (if only because of the random encounters with wild boars ;))
> Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist.
It might just as well be some other obstacle: slow moving vehicle, car stuck on the road, end of a traffic jam. People really really need to learn that you need to be able to come to a dead stop within the distance that you can see.
> Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist.
I suppose it depends on the country, but usually roads mandate minimum speeds (tipically half the max speed) in order to avoid issues like this. Anything lower than the minimum speed should be treated like a static obstacle, so maximum speed should always take into account unexpected hazards.
Given that cyclists cannot tipically maintain the minimum speed required in any country road, they cannot share the road with faster vehicles. It's either curbs or segregated roads. Anything else is plain craziness.
Cycling is similar KSI (killed-seriously-injured) per hour travelled as driving and walking according to some measurements. The trick is in calculating exposure: per-trip, per-distance and per-time all give different results. Per-time often suggests that cycling is safer compared to other modes of transport[1]. Per-trip and per-distance flip between cycling and driving[2]. Interestingly, being a public transit user works out the safest under both of these metrics.
" I also understand that there are bad chauffeurs on the road too, but from my experience, far less than bad cyclists..."
Your comment, which to be fair is not unusual, is essentially concern trolling. This impression is reinforced by your retailing of your measureless anecdote about how cyclists are worse than car drivers for being "bad".
Essentially, cycling is safe enough. Cyclists are not worse than any other road users. However compared to other road users they are not contributing to CO2 and are substantially less likely to kill other road users or suffer health problems stemming from low exercise levels.
There's no such thing as road tax, roads are paid for out of general taxation [0]. What they're thinking is vehicle excise duty, which doesn't apply to all vehicles, so that point is moot.
I would assume drivers are also thinking of the fuel tax they pay, not solely the excise tax. The UK has some of the highest rates of fuel taxation in the world.
Which is something you pay, at least in abstract, for someone else to clean up the carbon dioxide you litter the atmosphere with. If you dpn't want to pay the cleaning fee, don't litter -- take the bike!
Is that same level of tax levied on heating oil? If so, that bolsters the case that it's a carbon tax. If, as in the US, heating oil is untaxed or is taxed at a fractional rate of automotive fuels, that suggests that it's a road tax and not a carbon tax.
Can you do 30-40 km/h on those bicycle roads or is there slow traffic such as 10-20 km/h bicycles and runners? In the latter case fast bicycles will stay on the main road no matter what.
In my experience I also have much better visibility at junctions on the main road instead of on bicycle lanes that are closer to walls and hedges and have 3 or 4 meters less of buffer between me and incoming cars from the right. I'm also less visible to them. It means to slow down at every side junction and over 100 km it would make a huge difference in time and wear.
As a matter of fact I tend to stay on the road all the time. A consequence is that in the last years I started going over dirt roads along channels and rivers. It's very quiet and more relaxing than being close to the noise of cars.
> I also have much better visibility at junctions on the main road instead of on bicycle lanes that are closer to walls and hedges and have 3 or 4 meters less of buffer between me and incoming cars from the right. I'm also less visible to them.
More anecdata: I take the bike when I can, and I have had motorists run into me a few times.
Every single time has been on dedicated bike roads.
Don't get me wrong -- I have had many, many more near misses on regular roads, but regular roads are built in ways which make it easy to convert impending collisions into near misses. Bike roads tend to not have those margins.
Before dedicated bike roads can be considered a solution, they must be built in ways which make me feel safer when I choose them.
Often these "dedicated bike roads" become not-so-dedicated at junctions. Also motorists frequently ignore painted lines marking bicycle lanes. (You can argue for physically segregated bike lanes instead of painted lines, but as a cyclist I won't use physically segregated bike lanes unless I know how they end, because all too often you get a "bike lane to nowhere" with no way to get off it).
Yes, and suddenly you're in a tunnel frequented by characters you're likely to find in a crime thriller who like to find out-of-the-way places to practice their craft.
An (anti)pattern I often see is a road that's physically segregated for plain road, but then merges into and out of the main roadway (sometimes becoming a dedicated lane) for junctions.
It's so that drivers would see the cyclists in junctions. If the bike path is separated until the junction, it's common that drivers don't pay attention at all to what happens on bike paths and turn right into crossing bike traffic. What makes things worse is that usually there are bushes, placards, bus stops and others between road and bike path, all of which block visibility and grab attention.
I like your optimism. I've heard that in the Netherlands, the solve this problem by having a red turning arrow when people (on foot, on bike or in cars) are allowed to go forward. So in drive-on-the-left terms, vehicle traffic is allowed to go from the south to the north or east or from the east to the south. Since people who are driving cars from the south and want to turn to the west are obliged to stop, there's no possibility they'll unintentionally charge into people walking or riding bikes across the western entrance. The disadvantage is it requires four cycles not two, and therefore reduces the time pedestrians can cross.
On Albert St and Swanston St in (East) Melbourne, the separated lane stops at intersections so that cars can use the bike lane to turn left. People riding bikes are supposed to give way to people driving cars and then filter around the stopped cars into the bike box ahead of the cars. I never really feel safe using the Albert St lane for this and other reasons. Fortunately I have other options.
You ask great questions and they have been answered by someone else already! These dedicated bike roads do not have grade separated junctions, so in intersections sometimes motor traffic has to use a part of the cycleway, and sometimes cycle traffic has to use part of the regular roadway.
You can if they are maintained. Most dedicated bike paths around me have ripples in the surface from tree roots and have never been resurfaced since they were built. Using a road bike with skinny tires on them is bone jarring at low speed.
I don't think that's a fact. We are not even talking about particularly high speed roads here. The same thing happens regardless of speed so that's really nothing to do with it. The cost of separate cycle lanes (everywhere?) is huge compared to simple junction alterations as in this particular case. Traffic lights are even worse! These are vastly over-engineered solutions compared to that proposed in the article. Sure it may not work everywhere but remember the majority of roads and junctions are accident free where the road is shared by all users without issue. It's the easily avoidable accidents we should target. The lack of driver training/awareness is also explicitly called out in the article. It's an interesting read.
> simple junction alterations as in this particular case
I'd propose an even-simpler alteration, which would require zero engineering & road closures: block some of the right sight lines from Dibden to Beaulieu when approaching with a sightscreen, trees, or billboards. Drivers approaching would notice the impaired visibility and switch to a more defensive technique or be more aware of a potential collision.
In theory, yes I agree, some evergreen bushes would be sufficient. But it technically still leaves it possible for a driver to shoot straight over whereas the road change is fool-proof. Plus you don't actually have to close any roads to implement the junction alteration (in this case). Of course it is more expensive and time consuming to implement, I grant you that.
Shooting straight through is safe if Beaulieu is empty, so why prevent it? Even a low wall or hedge would be enough to prompt a driver to check for traffic more carefully than a superficial scan.
> In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS6jqXS.jpg)
Yes, there are many many of these in southern Jutland. However I can count on one hand how many cyclists I've seen using them. And I've spent months down there.
I cycle every day and am pro-bike, but they seem wasteful of both the countryside and money.
I would be opposed to building similar in the UK since more strips of asphalt throughout the countryside is the last thing we need.
My experiences cycling on fast country roads have been hairy at times, but we also need to recognise that there are problem spots and tackle these rather than copy/paste concepts blindly.
Separation is not the issue here, the separated lanes have to cross just as well. They are only less likely to have cars run over cyclists, because now the guy with the perfectly unobstructed view is forced to always yield to the guy who is driving around huge, dangerous blind spots. On-demand lights are even worse, now the guy who isn't a danger to others is legally obliged to preventive defer to those who are even if nobody is there, that's like saluting the portrait of the dictator.
> I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars.
Yes, they are focusing on feasible mitigation, not abstract theorizing (to be fair, about half of this comment does discuss the same sort of feasible mitigations as are dismissed in the first paragraph.)
I'm not sure having bicycle paths is always feasible.
The first reason is that building a bicycle path could take years and the problem can be solved much earlier and simpler in the way described.
Second, low-traffic roads may normally be safe enough for cyclists (traffic amount was never stated). The same issue can apply to remote roads of all sizes. Granted, it would be nice to have a bike road next to every high speed road, but for traffic in the range of 20cars/h I've seen that exactly once in my lifetime.
Strong disagree with Svip. Training doesn't make good drivers. Who is going to ensure the trainers are good? Who is going to test that the training is being effective? More restrictive licensing, with more consistent requirements, might make a difference, but is politically nearly impossible. As long as many people will be inattentive and unreflective humans, there will be bad drivers. Unless you're going to support a policy of refusing to allow a large percentage of the population to drive (like, say, how we restrict most people from performing surgery), you'll have bad drivers.
Bez's proposed solutions have the benefit of being politically palatable, and aligning actual driver behavior with public safety.
Uhm, training actually does make good drivers in Germany, tests are hard, enforcement is very consistent. That is one reason they don't need a speed limit on the autobahn.
Indeed. The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents', where a lorry turning right at a junction hits a cyclists because they are in their blind spot. This obviously happens exclusively in cities.
The media has made a big deal about how tragic it is for the cyclists - which it is, but much less about how tragic it is for the driver. Remember, it's not like drivers want to hit cyclists or other soft traffic participants.
That's why I propose a separate bike road, even if it is quite an expensive undertaking. But it will make all the road users feel safe. Or -- at least -- safer.
Unfortunately, the cycling organizations don't really like to admit that most right turn accidents happen because cyclists don't seem to understand that motor vehicles have blind spots, and big motor vehicles have bigger blind spots.
As someone who regularly drives, bikes, walks and uses public transport in Copenhagen, it is blatantly obvious that people just don't know how to handle right turns involving both cars and bicycles correctly. Car drivers will leave space open on their right (between the car and the curb), instead of putting the car as close to the curb as possible (which is taught in driver's ed). Bicyclists will pile into this space, and when the light turns green, it becomes almost impossible for the driver to turn right, because of the bikes already there, as well as the additional bikes coming from behind, completely ignoring the right blinker on the car.
The mitigation of this problem is two-fold. Firstly, the drivers should not leave open space on their right, when turning right. Secondly, cyclists need to grow a sense of self-preservation and not dive into that space, even if it's open. Large vehicles need to have some distance from the curb in order to complete the turn, but that should not be seen as an invitation to cyclists.
"when the light turns green, it becomes almost impossible for the driver to turn right, because of the bikes already there, as well as the additional bikes coming from behind, completely ignoring the right blinker on the car."
Isn't that how it should be ? I'm not in DK, but in LV traffic laws in such a situation they should ignore the blinker, the driver must wait and turn right only after everyone going straight e.g. those bicycles and also pedestrians crossing the road he's turning to; since the vehicle turning must yield to everyone else.
You simply wait for a gap in the flow of bikes, and pull all the way to the curb, so there's no gap. Then you only really have to worry about the bikes in front of you, and any pedestrians in the crossing.
Portland gets this wrong in every possible way. First, drivers turning right must yield to bikes in the bike lane passing on the right (not unreasonable IMO). However, state law also makes it illegal to pull into the bike lane and establish a position to turn right. Add in pedestrians and it's almost impossible to make a right turn on some roads at rush hour.
For some reason, we seem to have a lot of car/bike/ped conflicts.
Around here it's generally solved by having separate traffic lights for cars, pedestrians and the bike lane, and having some extra time every cycle of lights where it's red for bikes and pedestrians but green for cars to enable those turns.
No, the law clearly says that you can never overtake a vehicle on the right - and it applies to cyclist the same as to everyone else, even if the vehicle wasn't turning right it's illegal for the cyclist to overtake it on the wrong side.
Do I misunderstand your traffic laws (taken from https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=158005) pt. 21 about overtaking, which says "... Cyklist og fører af lille knallert kan overhale køretøjer af andre arter til højre." which seems to translate that it does not apply to cyclists and they can overtake on the right?
And 26.6 "...Ved svingning til højre må den kørende ikke være til ulempe for cyklister og knallertkørere, der kører lige ud. ..." saying that vehicles turning right must yield to cyclists going straight?
Yes, the car must yield, which is why the best approach is to wait for a gap in the flow of cyclists, and then go all the way to the curb, leaving no gap.
Of course, bicyclists will just jump the curb, ride on the sidewalk or overtake on the left, because everyone wants to be in front.
In almost every country (at least in Europe) cars have to yield to any traffic going stright on their right side. This includes both pedestrians and cyclists. And, yes, these have the right to overtake on the right. If straight traffic would have to yield to turning traffic, that would be way too dangerous
Yes motor vehicles have blind spots that is why in driving school they teach you checking over shoulder when you turn right. Remember?
And yes you should wait for pedestrians and cyclists first if you want to turn right. That is the traffic law. And maybe you can park your car on the curb so that you don't need to wait for pedestrians either!
Pulling right up to the curb is the correct way to prepare for a right turn in a car, while sharing the road with bicycles, as taught in driver's ed here in Denmark.
And yes, obviously you check your mirrors and do a good shoulder check, that goes without saying.
But you ALSO pull to the curb after checking mirrors+over your shoulder, to claim the lane while preparing for your turn. You pull in either in front of or behind the cyclists, because the dangerous situations happen when you're side by side.
If there's a bike lane, you obviously don't pull across that, this only applies for streets without bike lanes.
This could not apply to Copenhagen and Denmark but I guess that in most other countries cyclists are also car drivers and spend more time in their car than on their bicycle. However there are many car drivers that don't have a bicycle or seldom use it, maybe because they are scared by cars. If the driver is not a cyclist it's difficult to understand what's going on. I suggest that to get a license one should also get some practice in the traffic as a cyclist, to remember what not to do with a car.
About your mitigation strategy: that would solve the problem but unfortunately the cyclist won't stop behind the car. The cyclist would turn left to overtake the stopped car. I don't like to do that because it puts me in the middle of the road or to the right of another car. It also requires some space to maneuver and a car could be arriving from behind me and close the gap.
Usually stopped cars don't hit cyclists (but watch out for doors). I look at the traffic light and refrain from overtaking the car (both on the left and on the right) if it's about to turn green.
There is definitely an issue with crossing over to overtake on the left, which is why the best thing to do is actually to stay behind the car, but leave some distance to the curb, to claim your position in the lane.
That way, there will be no cyclists blocking the car from turning safely, and the driver will only have to yield to pedestrians in the crossing. To put it bluntly, it's because they're idiots.
> The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents'
It's the same in London, a city with notoriously poor cycling infrastructure and narrow streets due to long history. Ok, it's the "left turn" mirror image version due to driving on the left not right side of the road, but otherwise the same.
That is one of the things that annoy me most about new bike lanes. Why do they put them on the left side of left turn lanes!?? Look, we have had lanes for traffic like a century now. It shouldn't be hard. They just have ti do what they always did!
(Also the stupid unsafe cycling advice of staying to the left. Take the lane and take the correct lane, please.)
Many cars drivers have a habit of accelerating to get around cyclists as they are both coming to the junction where the car wants to turn left using the left turn only lane and the bike wants to go straight. I get cutoff at least once a month in this way. Very scary and usually the car drivers are oblivious to how dangerous their driving is.
I absolutely disagree. If I, as a driver, see someone in a left-only lane, it should ba absolutely safe for me to assume that they are indeed turning left - so I can safely pull out at the junction. Obviously it leads to accidents if the person then goes straight and runs into me. Being in a left-only lane is the same as indicating a turn.
If I as a pedestrian/motorcyclist/car-driver assume such things, eg that people not using turn indicators aren't turning then I'd have an accident at least once a day.
Making a couple of second allowance to protect the lives of other road users seems reasonable to me.
That said I don't live in an area with high cycle use - in the small UK city I'm in you're more likely to be stopping to avoid a drunk or a teenage boy doing wheelies.
>and runs into me //
Cleverly worded, but if you use your mirrors properly ... what's that phrase "hell is other road-users"?
The highway code says that cyclists should stay to the left. Even on a roundabout with multiple lanes, cyclists are supposed to stay to the left and cycle across exits.
I don't ever follow that rule when cycling, it does seem dangerous, but it is the rule, regardless of whether you disagree. You should always check blind spots when turning left, and you should have been coached to do this when learning to drive.
> The highway code says that cyclists should stay to the left.
The uniform vehicle code (which is the basis of many state road rules in the US) states the following:
>> Any person operating a bicycle... shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations
>> [...]
>> When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including [...] substandard width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a motor vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
A cyclist riding as close to the edge of a given lane as practicable will leave roughly 2 feet between the edge of the bicycle's handlebar and the edge of the lane. The cyclist is about 2 feet wide. In a lot of states in the US, there is a requirement that a least 3 feet of space is left between the cyclist and the overtaking vehicle.
2 + 2 + 3 = 7 feet. A passenger vehicle in the US is about 6 feet wide. A commercial vehicle (e.g., truck/lorry or bus) is about 8.5 feet wide. The typical lane width ranges from 10 to 12 feet. For a 10 foot wide lane, a cyclist taking up 7 feet of space only leaves 3 feet of space for a 6 to 8.5 foot wide vehicle (5 feet for 12 foot wide lanes). That means that the two vehicles cannot safely travel side-by-side within the lane.
So, according to the UVC, there isn't a requirement to keep toward the edge of the lane in most cases.
I haven't checked to see whether the UK highway code has a similar exception to the "stay to the left part of the lane" rule.
The other problem with keeping towards the edge of the lane as opposed to riding near the middle is that the cyclist is less visible to overtaking, cross, and oncoming traffic because they're hidden by other motor vehicles or not in the field of view of a lot of drivers.
I completely agree. There are similar rules over here about leaving a gap to the kerb, and that there should also be a gap left by overtaking vehicles. Both are often not observed.
Most cycling proficiency courses here in the UK will tell cyclists to ride more centrally when in a narrow lane, which is good advice. A cyclist is also legally allowed to do that.
It gets a bit fuzzy though when there's a cycle lane provided.
> It gets a bit fuzzy though when there's a cycle lane provided.
A lot of times, the cycle lane is really too narrow to safely ride in. It really ought to be a minimum of 4 feet wide (allowing a 1 foot space on each side of the cyclist if they're centered in the lane. Some that I've seen aren't even as wide as the handlebars on the bike.
Where I live, a cyclist isn't required to use the cycle lane even if one is present. Do you know whether the same applies in the UK?
You don't have to use a cycle lane here, but there have been cases in recent years where police have incorrectly stopped/charged someone for not using a cycle lane.
Should be; and as a driver, rider, and cyclist, would absolutely love to transport myself through such a world. Alas, a twenty-minute drive yesterday got me: people turning right from a left lane (across the through and right lanes, no less), people driving straight through red lights, pedestrians nearly run over on their green light by drivers turning into them, not to mention no indicator lights at all, and 10% of cars driving without any lights at all at night. (Incidentally, "world has road standards and then just ignores them" is IMHO the #1 reason that self-driving cars are not in our near future)
it is safer for the vehicle driver to not make that assumption, it is safer for the cyclist not to be in that position as you point out; and primarily, it is safer if the road layout does not put these different vehicles in the same space.
Seeing bike riders in London a lot of those sort of accidents (90 % of fatalities in London) are caused by cyclists undertaking agresivly.
Also the way the UK's bike lanes are set up encourage cyclists to get in front of other traffic at traficlight controlled junctions - normalises undertaking.
You need to build the intersections properly though. My city, in the NW US, built a beautiful separated multiuse path alongside a 50mph road. The trouble comes at the southern end where two 50mph roads intersect and the separated bikeway turns into a standard on-road bike lane on the other side. This also happens to be the highest traffic volume intersection in my city of 100,000.
The intersection is designed so right turning cars can make the turn at about 15-25mph when they have the green. The same green that the cyclists have. Cyclists must wait at a position that puts them slightly behind the right turning driver and the design simply doesn't allow a cyclist to inch forward enough to change that. If you were designing an intersection that will get cyclists killed, this is how you would do it.
My approach is to stop at the green light and hit the pedestrian "beg button" and wait for the walk signal on the next light cycle (a minimum 2 minute wait). This is still no guarantee that drivers will actually yield to me, but at least it gives me a chance to be seen. Even waiting, and having the walk signal and right of way, drivers get irrationally angry at having to wait a few seconds for me to cross. A few don't wait and swing wide right in front of my path. Fun Times.
There is a move away from seperate bike roads because these have a much higher right turn accident rate at junctions and a move towards bike lanes which are safer due to the shared space (more awareness of bikers by drivers)
No it isn't, I do it daily in Prague together with police cars that are coming from a nearby police station. The difference is that I can be sure no bicycles are on the road. If I stopped or slowed down it would be very unsafe but this way I just merge into the traffic seamlessly.
I think you're referring to a different situation. It sounds like you're talking about a merge into a freeway or something similar. Your parent referred quite specifically to a cross road. The goal is not to merge, it's to get across. I agree with your parent; the action was necessarily dangerous. A person approaching a cross road must slow down, more so if there's a give way sign.
Nope I don't mean a merging lane, I literally mean a side road where you have to give way to a main road but the safest thing to do is to speed up to 60-70kmph and merge into like if it was a highway. It's completely legal and most safe. In Europe the "give way" sign doesn't say anything about your speed, just that you can't cause others to speed down. Btw the same sign is used on freeway merging lanes, having to slow down as you imply would be extremely dangerous; the correct way is to use the merging lane to match speed with the lane you're merging into.
What's the punishment exactly? Being forced to slow down at a junction where you don't have right of way to ensure you give right of way to the road traffic you failed to see?
The road was obviously not designed with cyclists in mind, it was designed to enable cars to merge into the road quickly. The punishment is exactly what you describe: "we failed to anticipate bycicle traffic and so we'll make it impossible to go fast because we made a bad design."
In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS6jqXS.jpg)
That way, the cyclists can cross the side roads on their own accord, where they are more visible and have their own junction with the side road. Additional, one can set up a traffic light that only turns red for the cars when a cyclist is crossing (i.e. activated by a button).
Furthermore, one might consider signage that warns drivers about cyclists in the junction: https://i.imgur.com/CX6SJdW.jpg
Also, a way to reduce speed of the motorists without putting in stop signs would be to add chicanes just before the junction, so they are forced to slow down.
Plus, as I've mentioned before (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15977162), I also think it is because UK drivers don't really have enough training with how to deal with bicycles and the fact that they are also participants on the road.