China's great until you have to go to court there and realize you're being totally screwed over because your opponent has an "in" with the government. There are countries like Australia and Canada that strike a nice middle ground between too much and too little regulation, have decent, stable economies right now, and solid relationships with China in the case you want to partner with a company there. But I've heard too many horror stories from entrepreneurs getting burned in China to want to put all my chips in that stack.
> But I've heard too many horror stories from entrepreneurs getting burned in China to want to put all my chips in that stack.
I had a girlfriend who was working at a Chinese media company five years ago, and her company said something unpleasant (true) things about an important company in the local province. The mayor called up the newspaper, and was pressuring them... it turned out alright in the end, but it was a minor headache.
If you're doing business somewhere where political influence plays in court, you should just factor that into the cost of doing business and take the mayor out to eat once in a while and do something nice for a local charity or university. The small time/money to be invested in that is still probably less than the costs of compliance in more regulated places (who also have corrupt laws, but the corruption is further upstream - see AirBNB... hotels don't pay off the judge, they pay off the governor).
> see AirBNB... hotels don't pay off the judge, they pay off the governor
The law you're thinking of allows having guests as long as you actually live in your residence. My impression was that it doesn't actually affect AirBNB because of this.
In most cities that's true, but in a handful of big cities (mainly NYC and, from what I've heard, London), a large proportion of the AirBnB listings are actually quasi-hotels, listed by management agencies that are subletting dozens of condos, or even unlicensed hotels "subletting" out a whole building or large part of one. It shouldn't affect individuals renting out spare rooms, though, which is the less-shady part of AirBnB.
I would also be concerned about the legal system in China, but political pressure on the media is very widespread in europe as well. During the Iraq war, the entire BBC top management was fired for being critical of the war. In many European countries, polititians are the bosses of journalists at the most important TV stations.
Do you have a citation for that BBC claim? I don't recall anything remotely like that.
There was a lot of government pressure over the 'dodgy dossier' scandal, but nothing like 'the entire top management' being 'fired'. (By who? The BBC Trust?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC
"The 2004 Hutton Inquiry and the subsequent Report raised questions about the BBC's journalistic standards and its impartiality. This led to resignations of senior management members at the time including the then Director General, Greg Dyke. In January 2007, the BBC released minutes of the Board meeting which led to Greg Dyke's resignation.[19]"
I followed the events very closely back then. It's interesting that you should mention the dodgy dossier. It was a dossier that the government presented in parliament as an intelligence report when in fact it was lifted from a thesis paper and then sexed up by government officials. This was a clear case of fraud. But none of the so called independent inquiries even looked at this dossier. They preferred to look exclusively at another dossier that was less troublesome for the government. I watched as much of the inquiries as was possible and I came away thinking, what a farce, what a complete farce. The government ordered the inquiries, they defined the narrow mandate of the inquiries, they appointed the people who conducted the inquiries, everything. And the inquiries didn't ask the questions that would have been tough for the government.
Instead they used a minor note taking mistake by a small radio reporter to pressure the BBC leadership into resignation. I heard interviews with Greg Dyke afterwards. They were plain and simple fired and the renewal of the TV license was used as a lever.
Canada is a clear win. Set up a corporation in a single day. Fairly straightforward taxes (not the lowest around, but still fairly simple). Technical cities (Waterloo, Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa). Zero corruption, unless you're in the construction industry, but effectively nothing. Easy employee termination (2 weeks pay without cause, 0 weeks pay with cause). Low occurrence of lawsuits, especially medical, and much smaller settlements (highest medical suit I've heard of in my personal circle was $100k, and it was clearly deserving). Technocratic politicians usually win elections. Only about 1% of GDP on the military (vs 2+% for most of the developed world, and 5% for the US). Easy access to American products and markets.
To add to the win (and part of the reason why I'm planning to leave the US for Vancouver ASAP):
* Tax breaks (such as the federal SR&ED[1]) for high-tech businesses. I believe Vancouver has the largest by province, especially if you're in entertainment technology (like special effects) or video games.
* They consider themselves not a melting pot but a mosaic of people; i.e., there is no jingoistic pressure from the bumper-sticker patriots for foreigners to join the suburban zombie horde and conform conform conform, aside from at least learning english or french. Plus, you can sort of feel a fondness (rather than a passing, almost aloof acknowledgement) of their natives (deferentially called "First Nations"). The culture is one of acceptance, rather than impatient urgence to adapt.
* There is an odd reluctance to trusting outsized corporations, especially from what I've seen in Vancouver. Maybe it's just me, or perhaps it's their culture, but where I am now in the US, there are miles upon miles of strip malls with the same 30-40 chains and/or big box stores (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Bed Bath Beyond, TJ Maxx/HomeGoods, Olive Garden, Dollar Tree, etc.) and small business storefronts (aside from family-run ethnic restaurants) are almost non-existent. I see alot better mix of corporate behemoth vs. mom-and-pop shop in Vancouver. Could just be a big city thing (although, last I checked, NYC was looking more like a concrete version of a big-box store suburb rather than its "if I can make it here..." bootstrappy romantic past).
Re: third bullet point, it is definitely a big city thing. I haven't seen Vancouver suburbs, but those of Toronto are not substantially different from you would see in rest of North America, though perhaps not as bad as the worst examples.
Canada is a great choice. Singapore or Hong Kong would be ok. Various Eastern European countries, or Ireland, or Australia or New Zealand -- all great.
The only reason I would put a small business in China is a manufacturing business, or a services business focused ON CHINA. A services business focused outside China based in China is utterly insane. You have the language issue, the undeveloped legal system and business support system, the high cost of top-tier expats, and all sorts of political risk.
There's also the "can I connect to this outside Internet service today?" risk.
As I recall, people said companies can generally VPN out, but that adds to your costs (paying the external VPN site, plus latency, another single point of failure, etc.).
India has a fairer legal system. It offers a great balance between what Max wanted and what you describe. I'm curious why didn't India come up as an option for Max.
India has it fair share of massive bureaucracy and bribery corruption. Plus the basic infrastructure is rather lacking. You don't want to buy electric generator when you are small.
Maybe it's because of visa issues or because India is so notorious for red tape. Personally I would feel much more comfortable in a democratic, english speaking country such as India where human rights and freedom of speech are taken more seriously.
Is it at all possible to change the title from Europe to Germany. Most of his complaints are German specific and don't apply to everywhere in Europe.
Bureaucracy: I've heard regularly bad things about the German bundes. I've heard good things about UK, Sweden, Romania, Hungary.
Labor: Whether you get it here or there the price of labor is only going up, but in China it's going up faster. Programmers are expensive. I'm expensive. If a better offer comes along that you can't match or even come close to I'll be out the door faster than the computer can shutdown. (Of course with my 2 weeks-1 month notice first). Don't expect anything less from the chinese. I don't know what you are working but have you ever hired anyone straight out of college? Experience costs money and mistakes costs money. Just make sure the latter costs less than the former.
Costs and Taxes: Depending on the European country you may not pay any taxes on revenue while in the startup phase (generally 2 years). After that it's country specific, the rules that apply in Germany don't apply in the UK.
Travel: Maybe as a German these things don't matter to you, but, as an American, I find Europe to be fascinating, so many different cultures, so much history, and its all packed in one half continent. When I speak to other french or english friends about SE Asia it's generally "which beach should I visit this week?". Little interest in the culture, history, or the language (I love ordering food in thai, but that's all the thai I know). I think a lot of people have a very romantic idea of what SE Asia is about but that's it. Plus it's huge region, you need a plane to do all that traveling and those flights aren't short.
It looks like you've traded one set of problems for another. I don't know what the startup will ultimately be about but I wish you luck. Also be careful, lots of people have startup ideas that fizzle out, can't get funding, or can't get any promotion because it's not from the right place. One thing I've learned about a company is that it's the people you know as well as the idea that make it a success. If you are doing it in China, then have a chinese focus because no one in San Francisco is going to care about it, until it's too big to ignore.
While I agree with you for Labor and Costs and Taxes, I beg to differ about the travel part. With all due respect, the knowledge you and your "french or english friends" have about Asia is obviously limited, and equating them to the culture and history of many Asian countries is ridiculous. It is like saying "what does Europe offer other than museums?"
I don't think you read my comment correctly. The author was saying there were more interesting places to see in Asia than Europe, then proceeded to list the same asia-pacific beach circuit everyone else wants to go see. Maybe he really is interested in those countries, maybe he is only interested in those beaches. Most of my friends when they come back from SE Asia only talk about the beaches and how cheap everything is. It's hard to make a meaningful connection to a place on 1-2 weeks vacation.
I had the same thoughts on the travel. That part just seems like "somewhere else has better places to travel." I live in the western US, which has some of the most beautiful scenery in the world. Yet when I think about traveling, it is not around here.
I've heard good things about Ireland as well. I heard bad things about Hungary (nationalist thugs hunting down gipsies and foreigners). Never heard of the "German bundes" though.
I forgot about Ireland, but I've also heard good things about it. What I hear about nationalists are they are after gypsies, arabs, and africans mostly. But if you have money, they are more than happy to see you.
Sorry I'm not familiar with the German language but I believe "bundes" is what they call their ministries. I have a swiss friend who is an investor and he has plenty to say about the national bank (bundesbank) and the finance ministry.
I don't know why I would do business with nationalist thugs, just because they might not be chasing me this time. I don't think Hungary can have a very favorable business climate on that basis and looking at their economy seems to support that hunch.
"bundes" means something like "federal" I think, so "Bundesbank" would be "federal bank", the german Fed.
I really applaud your bold move and wish you the best of luck. But there is a lot of "the grass is always greener on the other side" mentality in this post, especially regarding personal freedoms and the bureaucracy/legal-system. I wonder how the example of your friend (getting sued for defamation) would have played out in China. How hard is it to hire good programmers in China? Does anyone have experience about what to expect for 600$ a month?
Does anyone have experience about what to expect for 600$ a month?
I am in favor of hiring outsourced Chinese programmers over Indian ones: it is possible to find ones with decent Japanese proficiency, which means that when Tokyo discovers the latest... curious engineering choice I don't have to spend a day doing the needful to communicate our displeasure about it.
We told our outsourced team to write four functions to be accessible via a REST service, using RestEasy. I anticipated this to be approximately a 20 ~ 30 line job. Two weeks later, we received a scratch-built HTTP client which supported precisely one verb and two handwritten serialization schemes, with half the code containing precisely one comment in English by way of Babelfish and the other half containing very literate English comments like you would expect from code developed at a multinational with a legal department better funded than the armed forces of of most NATO countries.
I find your single example of "unfreedom" in Europe to be entirely nonsensical.
Your friend was sued for defamation, and folded rather than take it to court, in one of the fairest court systems in the world, where she likely could have won cost plus damages if she had any evidence for her claims.
In China, someone might have shown up at her front door with a club -- and that someone might have a police badge or work for the mayor.
Also, the Chinese legal system is likely more Byzantine than that of Germany; it's just that it's not enforced. You're going to be in for a world of hurt when the government shuts you down for not having some kind of license you've never heard of.
Dude, seriously... I can't believe it. Talking about freedom, comparing europe and china ... Come on ! Is this a joke ?
Your friend is getting sued, so you move to a country where people are put in jail for their political opinions ?
Don't invent stupid excuses, there's no need to. You're 24 years old and are looking for opportunity, and China, despite being a bloody dictatorship were a billion people work in slave-like conditions, is the new land of opportunity, so you're giving it a try. Good for you.
But cut the ridiculous crap. You sound like a spoiled brat.
The taxes that German paid go toward the social benefits that the German enjoy. What if you get sick in China? Who pay for the medical cost? When you are out of work in China, who pay for the unemployment benefit? The statement that students graduated from university being competent engineers is not truth. You will find turnovers to be very high.
You are just trading one set of problems with another. I'm sure it will be a fun adventure. Good luck.
When in China, do as the Chinese do. If you want to really get off the ground there you'll need to partner with a local that knows the ways things are done, which is not always intuitive from a 'westerner' point of view.
A friend of mine is currently going this route and there are a few other HN'ers that are doing this, maybe you guys should get together somehow and compare notes. That might save everybody both hardship and time.
I would certainly love to meet other HNers that are going this route, perhaps you could set me up. I've got two close and old friends of mine that are locals and are collaborating with me, so that's good.
I'm an American running a company in Beijing. I may email you some time.
You have some things right and are too optimistic about some things. There are certainly freedoms here that you do not enjoy in the West - at the same time, relationship maintenance is an extremely time-consuming and expensive, never-ending process.
Whenever you brush up with a bureaucratic organization, the experience can be hellish. I own, for example, a ~600 USD receipt-printing machine (fapiao machine) because the gov't forced me to buy it for my business. I also need to buy a new one every 5 years.
Trust is a huge issue. You need a Chinese partner, or you're going to get your ass kicked. You need a Chinese partner you really trust (I recommend you consider finding a Chinese wife), or you're going to get your ass kicked. I know very few successful entrepreneurs who built their businesses here who do not have a Chinese spouse.
I hope you're not building a business where IP is an important competitive advantage. Your code is not safe - safety lies in creating smaller products that are approximately as easy to copy from scratch as to steal. Alternatively, a good business model is one that uses very simple tech but makes heavy use of sales and relationships (for example, a Groupon clone).
Good luck, and remember that people eat people here.
I live in HK and have lived, studied and now spend time working in China. If you are ever in HK and fancy a beer, drop me an email... first round is on me.
I'm moving to Kunming in Jan 2010-- will be contracting for my former employer but also working on startup projects, and hoping to employ some local university grads to do some grunt work...
It reads incredibly naive, but I wish the author the best of luck. He should however be prepared that drawbacks of Chinese way of doing business sometimes outweigh its advantages.
I don't think it's that naive. He mentioned several times that he has Chinese friends and locals who will help him. A lot of the replies here have been "don't do anything without a local" - that's exactly what he's not doing, because he knows some persons.
Oh, he has "friends." Well then, they must be perfectly trustworthy and competent, and they no doubt play by his own ethical rules, and he has nothing to worry about.
Yes, it is naive. But he'll have fun and learn a lot, so he should do it.
"These rules are also very difficult to discover and very difficult to implement correctly. From the situation with healthcare for your employees through to filing your taxes correctly, the amount of paperwork is insane and complex."
Sorry, but reading this is raising a question if the author of this blog article has experienced this himself or just hearing about it. The bigger your company is, the more complex tax forms and other things will become. But as a small startup company it is very easy to do taxes etc. You don't even have to fill out a standardized form for declaring your business income if you are a small company (EÜR in Germany). I was afraid of all this as well, but starting the company here is really easy, there are a lot of government/local institutions that help you with everything, even the IRS answers your questions if you have any.
I cannot judge on the other things, but they sound - as other said here - like the other grass is always greener.
When you were growing up, the previous generation of German businessmen gave up some of their profits to pay for your education and health care, and to ensure that you grew up in a relatively safe and pleasant environment. They did this with the expectation that you would in turn pay for the following generation.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should be forced to perpetuate the system. You didn't choose where you were born, and if you think the system in place there is wrong you should be free to leave. But you've benefited from the generosity of others, and now by moving to a country where it's cheaper to do business precisely because it doesn't offer its people the same advantages that Germany does, you're ducking out of repaying that debt. Have you thought about other ways to pay it back? Or do you consider the previous generation to be suckers for paying your way without making you sign a contract first?
Odds are his parents are net tax contributors, including whatever the state spent on him. Only people with poor parents really owe what they got to the state, as opposed to productive people like their parents.
There was recently an article on HN (sorry, can't find it ATM) about how to create a startup in China. The typical route is to create a business entity called a WFOE[1], which lets you operate your business in China as a foreigner, and has some tax/legal advantages. The gist I got out of the article and HN comments was that this can actually be very expensive and difficult; the application fee is inconsistent, and especially if you try to base the WFOE in a city like Beijing or Shanghai, in practice the cost can be in excess of $100k USD (of course the alleged nominal cost is lower).
This is from memory, so it might not be entirely accurate, but if you're considering starting a business in China you should definitely do some research into how much it will really cost to create and operate your business. There are some good resources on chinalawblog.com, and of course in the comments of HN articles about the topic.
My experience with surfing tells me that you don't paddle towards where the wave has been, you wait and position yourself for the next one. The basic assumption is very sound, in a global world economy repositioning may be very interesting. I too agree that Europe is mostly dead for innovation and startups, but China is probably over-rated and too much bubble-prone at the moment (not to mention corruption, cultural shock, state bullying, etc).
From the big countries that will probably fuel the world economy for the next 50 years (China, India, Brazil and Russia), I would bet my horse in Brazil. There are problems as well (education, poverty, corruption), but none of the BIG ones (terrorism, crazy state rules, dictatorship). There is definitely a trend (World Cup, Olympiads) and I am considering it as well, but timing is paramount: you don't wanna be the first to jump ship and deal with all the crap, but you definitely don't wanna be too late.
I lived in China in 2008 and while I'm no expert on China, you will learn quite quickly that some of your perceptions about China are not true:
- In china, you can pay a programmer 600€ a month
Sure, for average programmers. For good ones, you are going to be paying the same as elsewhere. A friend of mine there told me her brother was earning nearly $500 US/day working as a programmer for a company and they even gave him one week off per month. That would be a monthly salary of $500 x 5 days x 3 weeks = $7500
- you have a wide pool of qualified people leaving university which you can always pick from.
True but the Chinese educational system is very different from the "West". Their educational system focuses more on memorization. Creativity and problem solving are not taught very much. This is going to be a huge problem when hiring programmers right out of university. They will be looking to you to tell them everything they should be doing.
- Also, in china people are more willing to travel around to find an appropriate job than in Europe
Yes, I would say this is generally true amongst all classes.
- Quite apart from the chinese programmers, it’s also easier to get foreign programmers to work for you in china than in europe
Are you talking legally or just by the candidate's motivation?
When I was looking for a job as an English teacher, I went to one place and they told me they were only one of two officially registered English schools in the city. They told me that I would need a TESL (Teaching English as a Second Language) degree, which I did not have, in order for them to arrange the work visa. At the place I was hired, I still did not have a TESL degree but they arranged the work visa for me no problem.
Yes, it is more of the wild, wild west but as a foreigner, you are not going to be able to figure out the system very fast and it will cause you a lot of frustration and wasted energy.
- Important is that there are very low additional costs paid to the government. In Europe, you could pay 1/3 – 1/2 of your profits as a small company just servicing the goverment, China does not require this.
To be blunt, this is a very naive statement. Official costs might be low but you're not factoring bribes and other unofficial costs into the mix.
While teaching English, most of my students were in their 20s and 30s so I would often try to bring up topics of conversation for me to understand the way business works there. Many students would tell me that they would hate when government inspectors would come by as that would mean they would need to pay bribes to them. It is also expected that companies need to lavishly entertain these visitors, so in addition to the bribes, you are expected to drop hundreds/thousands of dollars on dinners and drinks.
Many students would also tell me that their dream job was to be a purchaser for a company. Some explicitly told me that this is because then they could receive kickbacks. I also heard quite a few stories about people stealing from their own companies. In fact, one story came from a guy who was just hired at a company and the manager encouraged him to "take a little for himself." The guy was uncomfortable doing this but he later found out that pretty much everyone in the company was doing this and only the owners were unaware of it.
This is the mindset that you need to adjust to. Many people do not think there is anything wrong with bribes and stealing from the company. If you are going to pay them low salaries, they will find a way to make it up from you.
Anyways, I wish you the best of luck. You'll sure learn a lot. It would be great to see a follow-up post from you in 6 months with your experiences.
Excellent points, I'm glad someone helped add some facts.
I moved my startup from the US to Hong Kong in 2007. I've spent the last three years there and in Southern China doing business. At the moment, I've moved back to the US (to LA) for a new venture, though I still have things running in Hong Kong (I'll be back next month).
For anyone interested in running a startup in Southern China, I'd be happy to answer questions. Getting things going in China is not easy. It's much easier to bootstrap in Hong Kong or Singapore while you get your bearings and then moving into mainland China later. And this comes from someone fluent in Mandarin Chinese.
If you are interested in doing things in that area, I recommend getting in touch with the Hong Kong Startup Association and introducing yourself there. The community is small and very supportive. Also the Hong Kong BarCamp is coming up soon, make sure to attend that if you can.
To add to your point on bribery, let's not forget that many countries have laws against bribing foreign officials. In the US it's the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act). I'd assume Europe has something similar (Wikipedia brings up a missing link to a European "Criminal Law Convention on Corruption", but I haven't looked into it).
Even if the host country is somewhat lax in its own enforcement, laws like this could make returning home rather dicey should one find themselves paying "unofficial costs".
Also, it's illegal in China. Enforcement is lax, but if you cross the wrong person expect the law to be enforced. Several Rio Tinto officers had to find this out the hard way.
Their educational system focuses more on memorization. Creativity and problem solving are not taught very much. This is going to be a huge problem when hiring programmers right out of university. They will be looking to you to tell them everything they should be doing.
Why do you believe this is different than in the US? While I've never hired programmers right out of university, most of the students I taught in university strongly objected when I demanded independent thought from them.
Sure, it happens in the US too. It's just more prevalent in China. When it comes to cultural differences, you can find the same examples in every culture. People steal from their companies in the US too. It's a matter of if these aspects appear more or less than in your culture.
At least you were trying to teach them independent thought. Teachers and parents do not do this much in China. The sense of hierarchy and obedience to authority appears more in China so the teachers/bosses/parents take advantage of this and just tell students what to do while students do not question them. Again, this is all on a general level.
My opinions were formed by talking to people about it, not from my own experience in the Chinese educational system.
I'm going to have to agree with mattm. Individuality and independent thought are not as prevalent in China compared to say the EU or US. You're going to have to tell people exactly how to do something a lot more often than you would in the US. It can be frustrating from one programmer to another programmer even if you have the language down... I wonder how a non-programming PM would do?
I think far more US university students, especially the top 10%, are going to have worked on projects semi-independently or independently. Either "group projects" in software engineering, or maybe personal outside projects.
I also lived in HK a number of years ago for 5 months but I didn't have much exposure to the business environment. IMO, HK is definitely more by the book and easier for foreigners to do business there. These elements exist but much, much less than mainland China.
Your company is young and your period of profitability is relatively short-lived to date. It seems unwise to have taken a business which appeared to be working well and overhauling it completely to (possibly) reduce costs which did not need to be reduced.
Do you have a 'plan-b' to allow you to quickly revert your company to its previous state if things do not go as planned?
Make plans for when the Chinese bubble pops. I'm quite confident they are in one, but regardless of your own feelings on that topic you can't rationally put the probability of that at 0%. When it pops, I don't know what would happen and there is another non-0% (and IMHO significant) chance that it might not be pleasant to be a foreigner at the time, especially a Westerner. If something looks to be popping I would make sure I could get the hell out of there.
I don't think they are in a bubble. Atleast not one that's going to pop. They have the advantage of developed and undeveloped markets. At the moment more of their money is going to fund internal investments since foreign investments have dried up. They have billions/trillions in soveriegn wealth funds so if they need capital they can break open a piggy bank.
Hopefully, if they've learned anything is overinvestment can be just as bad as underinvesting. If controlled properly they can coast on internal projects until the US and Europe exit their recessions. Then things can go back to business as usual.
I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. And you'd spend a lot of time just solving those problems, and have a lot less time to setup your company.
In comparison, I landed in china on thursday. Today is monday, and I have a fully furnished office (with furniture I selected myself), an assistant and 25 interviews with programmers scheduled for this week. The business papers have been submitted, bank accounts have been setup.
In comparison, I landed in china on thursday. Today is
monday, and I have a fully furnished office (with furniture
I selected myself), an assistant and 25 interviews with
programmers scheduled for this week. The business papers
have been submitted, bank accounts have been setup.
How much money did you need to spend for all that?
If you are not U.S born, it's
QUITE difficult to simply
walk in and start a company
in the U.S. And you'd spend
a lot of time just solving
those problems, and have a lot
less time to setup your company.
Not only that, you might have a hard time even getting to the US in the first place, as one of the requirements for even getting a visa is to show that you have "sufficient ties" to you current country of residence (e.g. a job).
If they suspect you might try to immigrate you won't even get into the country.
If you are trying to immigrate to the US on a non-immigrant visa then hell yes they will put you through the wringer.
Do the proper paperwork and apply through the greencard lottery. There are plenty of empty spots for French and German greencard seekers. Since we share the same language the UK slots are perpetually full. Australians get a special immigration visa (R-1?) just for being awesome.
It depends. They have quotas for different countries. Think of how many people are applying from your country. Then think of how many people are applying from Mexico, China, India, Guatemala. That is just the means so you have a much higher probability than if you are from a West European country than you do from a developing country.
I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S.
How do all the Chinese/Korean/Indian people in the US do it?
I often read on Hacker News about how difficult it is to start a software company in the US. But then I live in Brooklyn and people who don't speak english are always starting laundromats, bodegas, fruit stands, hardware shops, restaurants, and so forth. 3 out of the 4 businesses on my block were started by FOB immigrants. The only one that wasn't is a bar.
I don't know about Chinese or Korean communities but a lot of the indians that you mention primarily come through via family ties.
One person gets here (alone or family) and files for immigration papers for their immediate relatives, starts working here (usually at an establishment of a relative or a person from the same community), makes enough money, transitions to setting up a new business and the someone else takes their place at the previous establishment. That's how the motels and 7/11,Dunkin etc. chains are run ..
That's usually the case for DDonuts and Subways but Indians who create high tech startups are usually the ones who stood in line for a greencard ( sometimes for decades ).
The Chinese/Korea/Indian people come here mostly on 12 hr/weekday and weekend indentured servitude via PhD or post-doc program; a few also come on the H1B servitude program.
The FOB immigrants owning stores in Chinatown have either relations to U.S citizens (e.g., uncle, cousins) or they were born in the country and never bothered to try to learn English well (which is fine by me, since I speak Chinese as well).
Also there are quite few bars in Chinatown; they are just in the basement of the restaurants where illegal gambling takes place.
while the Startup Visa is a good thing, it's still difficult for people (who are not born here or who don't possess a GC) to start a venture here. Even with the startup visa, there's a lot at stake and a lot of pressure to meet the demands about a certain $ of investment, turnover, operating capital, etc. Not every startup is going to fulfill those criteria right off the bat and the cost of failure is too high.
That's one of the reasons why I'm thinking of moving to India or somewhere Singapore/ Hong Kong in the near future.
I found the internet much better in HK. Facebook, Youtube, Dropbox, Twitter, Blogspot, etc... are accessible. In Shenzhen, they aren't. Sure you can pay for a VPN, but then performance suffers on other sites.
How will moving to SV help with his number one concern (programmer cost)? In the EU he pays $5000/month for programmers. In the valley he will be paying roughly twice that.
(The valley may have higher quality programmers and a better tech ecosystem, but I'm guessing the author is looking for grunts rather than artisans.)
Didn't he say 5000 Euro a month loaded costs? That's low end of the market where I am in the UK - for people with specific domain knowledge or a proven track record you would be paying a lot more.
I must admit, China would have never crossed my mind as the country of freedoms. But then, I've never been there. Also, I weigh some freedoms higher than others - I don't like that the Chinese government has the freedom to shoot me...
Actually to maintain a western standard of living your costs will probably be more in china, since many western brand name products are imported (despite being made in china). For example an apartment in shanghai can cost more than one in NYC, iPhone costs more, etc.
Agreed with the cost of living. No matter where you go in the world, if you want to live an American lifestyle - car, big house/apartment, western products - you will pay just about the same as living in the US. However, if you can live like a local, your cost of living will drop dramatically.
Even my relatives stopped buying street food for me there. Generally it's really unsanitary. Even street food in NYC is unsanitary, china is definitely worse.
Is the speed of hiring and firing programmers really that much of an option? I know that Germany has some rather old-fashioned laws about that, so it's hard to get rid of someone fast. But when we're talking about the usual startup fare, the legal ramifications and a few months of pay are probably the least of your problems.
Or to put it another way, if it isn't a problem, it's likely that your product sucks.
I wonder why almost nobody mentioned "ethics". Besides the arguments in the blog post, is it morally OK to start a business in a dictatorship? I am not so sure about it.
I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to make arguments on rational grounds before I try ethical ones. Ethical arguments are less reliably convincing because not everyone is in agreement about what is ethical, and some people don't have any ethics at all.
Well; yes and no. If it's really difficult to fire people, like it is in many places in Europe, hiring is also less likely to happen. People tend to cling to jobs once they have attained 'unfireable' status.
An alternative solution: make firing people easy, but provide some support to those who get fired. That has costs and benefits too, and is a discussion probably best left to another site. Its main benefit is that it moves the provisioning of "social assistance" from companies, who are no longer forced to hold on to unproductive/unneeded workers, to the government.
It's not the gov't regulation that is the problem but how integrated your job is to your lifestyle. You can't rent an apartment without either having a sufficiently large deposit or having your employer cosign for you. You can't open a bank account without having a job (for example, after arriving in Paris, I walked into HSBC to open an account with 2000€ cash, the manager said I should take it to the post office).
Firing someone is not the problem, it's the ensuing lawsuit that's the problem. If it's not done in a particular way you may end up paying an entire years salary instead of a few months.
Sounds like your opinon on this topic ends up depending on your locale. In America, you can walk up to a bank and open an account with $20 no questions asked. It's been a few years since I rented an apartment, but I only needed an extra month's rent for a security deposit.
As far as lawsuits go, that is really more about government regulation. Depending on the what the regulations say, getting sued may or may not be a real concern.
As an American it was a shock to me too I asked the bank why I couldn't open an account and the manager said I'd be better served by the post office. The reason I wanted to use HSBC is so that my French and US accounts could be integrated. But because I was working as a bartender I guess I wasn't the type of client they wanted. Here, classism is rampant and if you aren't in the right circles or profession doors are closed.
Also, it's very hard to evict someone. It takes a few years and the other person lives rent free. So your choices are to either put up an incredibly large deposit (+30,000€) or have your company guarantee the contract. In my case I just started a new job when I got my apartment. So I put down 22,000€ deposit. People are nicer when you write large checks :)
As for lawsuits. It's not the suit companies are worried about. But the lawyers fees. Labor law, here, is very exact and certain things have to be carried out before you can be fired. A lot of companies just settle because it's cheaper than what the lawyer would charge. Actual lawsuits are rare. A person intelligent to bring a lawsuit and have the funds to retain a lawyer usually doesn't have a problem finding work.
This is likely due to you being an American citizen or green card holder:
American authorities have lately completely disregarded that some people may expatriate for completely legitimate reasons, and American crackdowns and IRS rules makes it exceedingly unattractive for any non-American financial institution to deal with American customers.
The minimal gain opposed to the guaranteed hassle of dealing with American authorities and rules simply isn't worth it for most foreign banks.
Yes, I know this - but life's not always fair now is it ?
In this particular case it might not be a problem since Max can keep an eye on his employees , but as soon as you have a manager - you might be very afraid to get on his bad side (maybe in an argument over something technical or a complaint about your chair) for fear of getting fired.
Life may not be fair in every situation, but if you were really creating value for the company it shouldn't be too hard for you to find another job that may even furnish you with a proper chair.
Me either, seems to go from one extreme ("Can't touch the employee") to another ("Yeah you can dump them if they dress badly"). I'm hoping to attribute it to just the way it's written though but it does come across like you said.
