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Alphabet Finishes Reorganization with New XXVI Company (bloomberg.com)
149 points by tareqak on Sept 1, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 113 comments


This seems like it is Google preparing itself for a future where it will almost certainly be hit with the antitrust hammer here in the US. Google has been getting increasing pressure from the EU [1]. It, at least in the public's eye, has been showing more monopolistic behavior and getting more attention, like discussed here [2]. There has been talk of Amazon and Facebook facing similar antitrust issues in the future too, but those seem to be quieter.

The future is uncertain, but this will sure be interesting.

1: http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/27/technology/business/google-e... 2: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/us/politics/eric-schmidt-...


Google used to be this unique company that again and again would launch exciting new services or products. Often it was services that helped them sell ads, but it was services that users found very helpful.

Gmail, Google Translate, Google Map, Google Earth, Chrome, Android. These were all unique in their own way when they came out and found hundreds of millions (mostly free or low paying) users.

But what is the one thing or service that you use from Google which was launched in the last 5 years and are widely used? Nothing.

What is the one thing that they charge for, except advertising, and that scores of people care to pay for? Nothing.

Sure, there have been ongoing improvements of their services and lots of tools, languages and frameworks released for developers. They have been testing self driving cars and there have been rumours about what they do in their lab. There have been laptops, glasses and loudspeakers, but none of them have really been successful or close to be considered market leaders.

Apparently, it's really difficult for one of the richest companies in history with tens of thousands of the most talented engineers, to market just one new product every few year. Was there ever in history so much money gathered so easily by such an amazing force of engineers?

Even within software services that you would think a global company with the largest user base ever, and millions of paying webshops, could dominate; Why is Google not a leader in payment technology? Why are they not dominating hosting services? Why are they not dominating cloud storage? Why don't we buy content such as books, news, movies or songs on Google? Shared economy? Social networks? Why are they not dominating anything else but a few software services that help them sell their core product, the ads?

Google can make such huge amounts of much money selling ads, that everything else is dwarfed in comparison. How could you ever get the attention of management for a project that could potentially - if everything goes well for 5-10 years - make 5 billion in revenue, when Google makes more than that in a month right now?

Not despite of their money but because of their money, Google cannot innovate. Take 1,000 Google engineers elsewhere and they could do amazing things. Have them in Google, and the world would barely notice if they all called in sick for the next 10 years.

Maybe Google's restructuring will help on this. I doubt it, unless the umbilical cord to all the advertisement money is cut completely. Size matters. Google has gotten way too big.


I have to disagree with this characterization. I don't work for Google but it is apparent that a lot of work goes into their products. You don't necessarily need to launch a new product to show impact. Improving existing ones is plenty great too, even if these improvements aren't as apparent as product launches. For example, we take for granted that the Google assistant can understand most things we say to it. By this time next year it would have gained a bunch of new capabilities that we would also take for granted, except more people would likely be using it and they'd be happier with it than they are today.

On one hand you acknowledge that they are constantly improving existing software, launching new hardware, new frameworks, new tools and on the other you criticise them for "not launching even one product". It's strange because I've actually heard the opposite criticism of Google on HN, that they launch too many products and don't focus enough on existing ones.


Many Google products are getting worse. The Maps UI isn't as good as 5 years ago. Search doesn't find things as well as it used to. And competitors are catching up. The developer libraries and languages they have released are all 2nd rate.

The grandparent is right - they basically haven't been able to capitalise on their incredibly strong position, except by becoming better as selling ads.


The UI might be worse, but everything else about Maps is better. It knows where front doors are, you can get directions through buildings if you're walking, it's far more traffic-aware, you can schedule when you want to arrive somewhere and it's public transit is smart enough to adjust for available busses, it works in areas of the world like Kiev with Latin or Cyrillic spelling, it has photos of the insides of most places, you can send the directions to your phone and it opens in the maps app there.

My only major complaint about maps is that it isn't friendly to people with limited data. Tapping on a restaurant in Thailand where I might have 50 megs of data for the whole month loads around 1-3 megs of images when all I want to do is see what time it opens. There are minor UI annoyances but overall Maps is a much, much better product than 5 years ago.


I think you are not seeing the larger picture. I am sure I am not, but I get glimpses of it. Google maps has added a huge amount of functionality, just not for getting from place to place. They had that down for the most part.

Now they have rankings, hours, sometimes details floor plans on almost every business, every park, every location in the world, that is mind blowing!

On top of that they have photos of everything, those photos, can be used to generate 3d maps for the web, VR, MR. Those photos are also used to train AI.

I think they are doing a great job of capitalizing on their position.


I think that's quite subjective.


> But what is the one thing or service that you use from Google which was launched in the last 5 years and are widely used? Nothing.

Project Fi? Launched 2015, unsure of subscriber count.

Google Cloud Platform? Launched in 2011.

TensorFlow? Launched in 2015.

Kubernetes? Launched in 2015.

> Why are they not dominating anything else but a few software services that help them sell their core product, the ads?

A lot of it comes down to first mover advantage. Lets take your payment tech example. Paypal was founded to accept online payments within months of Google being incorporated. The way I recall the dotcom era, Paypal was paying customers 10 bucks to open an account. And that money was useful because virtually everyone on ebay accepted it. Network effects are critical there.

Google Wallet tried that same trick and it doesn't really work because there's like a billion startups in the space competing to offer virtually the same API and customer UX. Venmo, Braintree, Android Pay, Google Wallet, fuck, even my own credit cards are now in promoting their services in the 'p2p payments' space. None of them are going to end up looking like a Paypal success, because the market is comparatively fragmented.

Same goes for hosting services: AWS has something like a 5 year head start on customer acquisition, and many of them are locked in to AWS for the forseeable future. Between the AWS specific API deps, and the cost of cloud:cloud networking, they have their work cut out for them. And again, there's a fleet of startups flooding the market, as well as major companies: Oracle and AliBaba are bootstrapping cloud hosts in Seattle, where they're pretty transparently recruiting burnt out AWS engineers.

Arguably, they're structurally at a disadvantage. Google's competitors can freely subsidize user growth, whereas Google doing the same would likely draw antitrust complaints today. It's already kind of a big problem for them, and other market incumbents. I just listened to a fairly level headed discussion on the FT podcast about why Amazon might need to be more strongly regulated. Going forward this restructuring is likely going to be the way Alphabet works: instead of directly innovating, they use the proceeds from Google to buy winners from those overcrowded markets, some of which they may have had VC funding rounds in.


These are tools used by thousands of devs, but not hundreds of millions of users.


Hundreds of millions of users is a very high hurdle. I'm struggling to think of _any_ product used by hundreds of millions of people launched in the past five years. Care to jog my memory?


Telegram and Snapchat are probably the most reasonable companies.


Snapchat founded 2011, same time frame as Google+. Which is on the wikipedia list of 100M+ user communities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virtual_communities_wi...), but its hard saying how that google+ number was arrived at.


But the dev use those tools to make tools for users.

The users are using it indirectly.


"What is the one thing that they charge for, except advertising, and that scores of people care to pay for? Nothing."

I think you forgot Google's enterprise tools (i.e. Google mail, docs et all with an actual helpdesk to call to). People do pay for those. But I have no idea how many customers they have.


Older than 5 years


Google Photos? I assume it's an Android default because it's a 1b+ downloaded app on the Play Store - so probably 100s of millions of users?


> I doubt it, unless the umbilical cord to all the advertisement money is cut completely.

Forming separate LLCs does that.

> Google has gotten way too big.

Alphabet — and especially the non-Google subsidiaries — isn't Google, and this transformation makes that even more true, legally and financially.


> But what is the one thing or service that you use from Google which was launched in the last 5 years and are widely used? Nothing.

Tensorflow and Keras would be example under "one thing"

It's widely used as in the backend of it and many software and research papers are using it.

I'm using it.


You're complaining that because Google is not dominating cloud, payments, digital content, social networking etc, it's too big?

Because Google's Ads business is so successful, comparing anything else to it is difficult.


Project Tango, Chromecast? Money also through Google apps, email and Android


Project tango is great but not a product with hundreds of million users. It is a tool for developers.

Chromecast has sold 30 mio units since it was launched 4 years ago. Whereas that might be a lot for you and me if we launched a company, it's very little for Google.

If it had been an independent company selling 30 million units in 4 years for maybe $10-15 a piece to the stores, making maybe $5-10 per unit, you would likely never have heard of them. In 4 years Chromecast has probably made less revenue for Google than the ads make per day.


It's not free software, 30 million hardware units is massive


Google Photo has been launched less than 5 years ago and is a great product.


> But what is the one thing or service that you use from Google which was launched in the last 5 years and are widely used? Nothing.

TensorFlow, Keras


>What is the one thing that they charge for, except advertising

I don't get the "If you exclude (thing that makes them 70billion $ in revenue) what do they really do?" logic.


Excellent insight, thanks for sharing that.

I'd also agree with the following:

> Not despite of their money but because of their money, Google cannot innovate.


Elite school engineers may not fire up great products and services when all they think of is "fat" pay. Spirit of innovation and invention comes naturally to us when we are "squeezed". Google is a mature company and their primary concern should be on squeezing out money Dollars from their current product lines


Google photos, chromecast, project fi.

Ps: google employee, but would have done the same if i werent.


Reminds me of a certain military industrial complex...


I think it's the reverse. I think it's so that in the future when one of their self driving cars has an accident and kills someone, they are only liable for however much money that division has, and not all of Google.


Seems likely. This way if/when Google LLC gets hit by massive antitrust fines the rest of the Alphabet subsidiaries will be insulated.


the rest of the Alphabet subsidiaries will be insulated.

they already are...relatively speaking they make no money.


Since Google makes all the money, that's the opposite of the important direction of insulation. This way if one of the other bets incurs massive liabilities, Google's assets and income streams are insulated.


This would make sense if the other entities were actually making, which they don't. Cut the ties to Google and everything else dies.


Why does it matter?


Its Alphabet giving its non-Google businesses the ability to take risks and fail without jeopardizing each other and, especially, Google.

It gives them much greater freedom to innovate.


When the drama unfolded over the James Damore manifesto I recognized immediately what would unfold next in our cold civil war.

The folks who work at Google may have been appeased but it served as a lighting rod to gather those who oppose the culture in urban areas like Silicon Valley.

I think it's very likely we will now see an accelerated push from the Trump administration and conservatives to break up the big firms in Silicon Valley.

I hope I'm wrong.


I'll take a stab at it.

Internet search has evolved past that of a free market entity; search is now a public utility as much as power and water.

You can't imagine a neighborhood without power and water. You can't imagine the internet without search. Google today is like the AT&T of old. When we bust it up the goal should be power-utility-like entities (bland, unbiased, purely functional entities with mostly technical oversight and immunity from liability)


We can't even get internet access regulated as a public utility in the US despite many begging for it, hell we can't even keep internet access neutral! There's no way that a tool used on the internet would become one.


> There's no way that a tool used on the internet would become one.

Said tool pissed of the party that is most strongly associated with "never regulate!".


They're overdue for a bit of regulatory shaking, even amid the ironic circumstances.


Does any of the subsidiaries except for Google turn a profit though?


Yup. Instead of a corporate inversion, it's a corporate dispersion.


During the Trump administration? Not likely. Even Obama didn't take action like that, so I can't see republicans or Trump doing it.


Trump has at most 8 years, barring another constitutional amendment. I can believe that Google is looking further than that.


Republicans and Trump are much less friendly to Google, even if less generally inclined to anti-trust vigor,


If the fines are for behavior during the time they were together I don't see any separation now being worth the paper it's written on.


They are not trying to avoid fines, they want to prepare for the possibility that the company will be forced to split into multiple (truly) independent entities. When the split is done carefully beforehand, the loss to shareholders is minimized compared to a much more abrupt split done by a court of law.


If there was a split it would be inside Google, not splitting Google from other bets.


Another way to look at it is now it's easy to divest some of those entities


If they were going to do this, they would have pulled the advertising out of google.

This would drop what Google makes, but would also reduce what Google can be fined in the EU.

*edit, I mean the legal entity that sells the ads. DoubleClick, adsense,...


The parent links to an EU article about fines and another sibling comment said it would help protect against fines.


I feel like Google's naming is clashing with Amazon's:

- Amazon's "smile" points from A to Z.

- Google's parent is Alphabet.

- A2Z Development Center Inc is Amazon's holding company for a number of subsidiaries.

- Google's holding company is XXVI -- there are 26 letters in the English alphabet.

- Lab126 is Amazon's digital product development arm. 126 meaning letters 1 through 26.

Surely the leaders of some of the largest tech companies can come up with better names -- or is naming truly one of the hardest problems in computer science?


Should have been something like Hooli


Naming is the hardest problem of all possible universes, in all possible universes.


Q: what are the two greatest challenges to software engineering?

A: cache invalidation, naming things and off by one errors.


Known that going back at least ten years. My "solution" is a simple letter digit naming scheme that lets me get a bunch of tiny functions ready and working, then come back and name them by what they actually do. Works out well for me, productively, but...

You don't want to read my code.


Source? er, I mean "citation"? Wait, I mean "on what grounds"? ahh dammit


Yep, 26 is also a numerical value of YHVH, i.e., Yahweh :)


Thank you for reminding me to go watch Pi again.


My impression has always been that it's likely a PR based decision, trying to make your brand as ubiquitous in the human condition as is humanly possible.


>Surely the leaders of some of the largest tech companies can come up with better names -- or is naming truly one of the hardest problems in computer science?

It must be a really existential problem!


These are just the preparations for the inevitable merge of Amazon and Google. ;)


A coincidence in a naming blitz


There are 23 uppercase letters in the parent comment.

Both 'Google' and 'Amazon' have 6 letters.

23+6=29

29-3=26 (letters in the English alphabet)

('Twenty_Six').length == 10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology


> [] + {}

'[object Object]'

> ([] + {}).length

15

> ([] - {} + '').length

3

> 15 - 3

12

> 12 * 3

26

that makes sense, thanks.


the holding "Company" of the "holding companies" likes cryptograms and these are actually pretty good. "clash" implies "two" parties but if there is only one then it is consistent.

"XXVI" for "2" => "13" + "13".

naming is hard and these are fine names. they need no "introduction".


years later gai machines dig up old hn archives and wonder at the stupidity of the downvoters :)


Techmeme Summary: Alphabet creates XXVI Holdings Inc. through which it will separate “Other Bets” from Google and become direct owner of subsidiaries like Waymo and Verily


Why did they change things again or is this simply a 2-year process that is only now completing?


The article explains it, but it's not 100% clear why the extra step was needed.. "Google co-founder Larry Page announced Alphabet two years ago to foster new businesses that operate independently from Google. Technically, however, those units, called the “Other Bets,” were still subsidiaries of Google." With this new change, XXVI Holdings will hold the equity for all child companies, rather than Google still being the owner.


Until now the only Alphabet subsidiary was Google Inc. The other bets were still Google Inc subsidiaries. This move brings them up a level and separates them from Google.


Looks like a pretty clean refactoring to me!


I don't see why they don't just put all their subsidiaries under Alphabet. What is the purpose of Alphabet if not a holding company?


Uncertain. XXVI could be just a vehicle for accomplishing that eventually. For now it probably just simplifies the transaction.


It's in the article.

Alphabet owns google and the other bets.

If one of the LLC under Alphabet get sued it doesn't effect the other LLC (bets or Google).


That doesn't explain anything.


Perhaps this makes it cleaner for Alphabet to sell equity in the other bets, as they have in Verily (https://www.recode.net/2017/1/26/14399042/verily-health-tech...).


> “We’re updating our corporate structure to implement the changes we announced with the creation of Alphabet in 2015,”


Why is this necessary? I thought Alphabet was meant to eventually achieve this, what makes the extra company necessary?


The following sentence sounds like they plan to achieve a less transparent situation "The switch is partly related to Google’s transformation from a listed public company into a business owned by a holding company" therefore they buy back their stocks.


It's not any less transparent. Afaict, Alphabet Inc is the listed holding company of Google LLC and XXVI Holdings. XXVI holds the Other Bets subsidiaries that used to be Google Inc subsidiaries. Google the entity no longer has any non-Google subsidiaries so they're simplifying and streamlining Google operations by changing it into an LLC.


LLC cannot issue stock, right? If you buy back all stocks then you don't need to provide detailed public reports except to major stockholders?


Alphabet is the only owner of Google Inc stock. They're retiring it all and converting the Google subsidiary to an LLC. That in no way removes their reporting requirements, because Alphabet is a publicly traded company.


The reporting requirements will be reduced, though. Alphabet reports consolidated results and you don’t get the same level of detail for each subsidiary as you would for an independet company.


Does this feel like a "friday news dump" to anyone else?


No, it seems pretty mundane to me.


A major restructuring of one of the largest companies ever is not mundane.


Nice revenue reporting re-structuring! Very curious to see where this goes, that was a lot of work to blurry line items.


This is probably all you need to know from this article:

Now, it’s owned by Alphabet, so it effectively has only one investor and no public disclosure obligations.


If I'm an Alphabet shareholder, did I just lose my stake in Waymo et al? It seems they are now no longer subsidiaries of Alphabet?

That would be a big deal.


They are still subsidiaries of Alphabet. Previously the structure was like this:

    Alphabet
        |
     Google
        |
    Other Bets
Now it will be:

         Alphabet
             |
      ———————————————
      |             |
    Google         XXVI Hldg.
                        |
                   Other Bets


Wrong.

"The new entity, called XXVI Holdings Inc., will own the equity of each Alphabet company, including Google."


Thank you for the correction. This is indeed the case.

Are the "Other Bets" still subsidiaries to Google or are they owned directly by XXVI?


From the article:

> She called the process a legal formality that won’t affect ultimate shareholder control, operations, management or personnel at the 75,606-person company.


Re-org: the universal sign of management theater or hiding the cash before the cops come.


LLC's will hardly protect your cash from law enforcement action vs the previous set up.

I believe it's just updating the business structure right down to the low level corporate/legal structure to reflect their multiple silo'd "bets" business strategy. It doesn't seem so nefarious if everything else is already functioning that way in practice.


Google is clearly betting on non-search-engine enterprises for years to come


Great way to reduce liability


> "Google is also changing from a corporation to a limited liability company, or LLC."

> "The change helps keep potential challenges in one business from spreading to another, according to Dana Hobart, a litigator with the Buchalter law firm in Los Angeles."

Effectively, I take it this means Google isn't responsible if a self-driving car goes on a Skynet-esque murder spree, nor can their self-driving car property be sold off by the government to pay all of Google's antitrust fines coming down the pipe?


I thought corporations have the same liability protections as LLCs and that the difference was more in the way of taxation, ownership, and administration requirements.


Nope. The "liability" in the name refers to personal liability, and it's 'limited' in relation to the greater personal liability present in a partnership or sole proprietorship. An LLC's liability structure is exactly the same as that of a corporation; the main differences between the two are how taxation is handled


I am confused because that's what the article seems to say. The other segment on this is:

> “By separating them, it allows the parent company to limit the exposure of the various obligations of the LLCs,” Hobart said. “For example, if one of the LLCs has its own debt, only that LLC will end up being responsible for payment of that debt.”

Is it that the act of making them separate companies under a holding company that grants them this, rather than the change to an LLC specifically?


Yes, similar to how SpaceX isn't liable for Tesla.


But Space X and Tesla are two different companies with different shareholders and boards, the only thing they share really is the CEO.


It is more like how Berkshire Hathaway owns Duracell and GEICO and actions in one don't directly impact another.


So no more Google Inc.?


Correct, it'll Google LLC now.


Funny, I was betting on the new name to be "SkyNet".


Since the latest censorship debacle, I have begun to resent Google on principle. They certainly had everyone fooled with their "Don't be evil" theme. No such thing.

What is needed now is an update to our laws that will prohibit carriers/hosts of information from censoring content that does not violate the First Amendment, the way GAB is doing it. GAB's efforts are worthy of an applause, however, they are a lone wolf, a reaction to the usurpers at Google, Twitter, Facebook, Apple, etc.

Speaking in disagreement with whomever on the internet isn't the same as speaking in disagreement in someone's house where you can most certainly kick the person out, or speaking in disagreement with your employer, James Damore style and getting fired for upsetting the groupthink.

The wireless spectrum should be sold with these guarantees of freedom of speech attached and new laws needs to be passed that will NEVER again allow Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple or whomever, regardless of size, to usurp America's most precious freedom.


GAB = google/alphabet


Gab is a free speech/alt right twitter clone.


exactly




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