I'm not saying it's open. But clearly capitalism doesn't lead to solutions of all problems ever, as evidenced by this.

But then a right winger will visit Shanghai, talk to a bunch of happy Chinese and make a YouTube video where he says that in China everyone is happy and rich while in EU your daily life is a struggle against Calais EuroTunnel stowaways or something.

The only thing that allows China to do all these is political will of the people in countries that enable it. Somehow North Korea doesn't get a free pass but China does. As long as people value cheap products and ruthless 'capitalism' and 'free market' (if you can even call China that with all the governmental interference) more than rights of ordinary (i.e. not ones in central Shanghai) Chinese this will keep happening.

So what do you want Apple to do? Leave the China market and allow a government owned phone company to take the market share? How is that scenario better for anyone in the US or China?

I mean being angry that the Chinese government isn't great at human rights is one thing, but to point that anger at Apple is a bit misguided, and what do you suggest that would actually make the problem better?

I don't know. That's why it's even a problem. If there was an easy answer then Apple would just do it (or not) and there would be no discussion or dilemma to be had and we'd all applaud them or shit on them depending on if they did the right thing or not.

It's a very tough problem because on one side isolating is bad and allows the oppressive governments to create 'us with them' rhetoric and replace foreign companies with domestic ones that are absolutely subservient to them, on the other, abandoning your original principles and showing that you can be part of 'the West' (products and services wise) without accepting any of the Western values is also bad.

Many people here suggest allowing side loading apps, maybe that's the answer. It'd allow some people the freedom to use iPhones with VPN but also allow Apple the plausible deniability. And Apple's walled garden approach is also criticized for other unrelated reasons so it'd help with them too.

You also have to consider China is a sovereign country with their own laws and culture. Who is Apple (or the US for that matter) to dictate what those laws or cultures are? Consider the US has many laws and practices that are considered human rights abuses domestically, much less abroad. Among these is the practice of solitary confinement, police allowed to withhold evidence during interrogation, overreaching sentencing, privacy abuses, etc.

All I'm saying I guess is don't make Apple out to be a bad guy because they can't wade through that mess. I wouldn't expect them to. One thing is they seem to care more about secure devices than any other tech company I'm aware of. They aren't perfect by any means, but they've shown that they are willing to put their neck out with the San Bernandino thing and others.

There is culture, justified censorship (of extremism for example) and then there is hiding what government did during Tiananmen Square incidents and hiding the transgressions of the CPC and twisting or destroying pre-communist Chinese history, culture and religion.

No one is telling Muslim countries to show women hair or telling Singapore or China to unban porn or Europeans to stop enjoying football and enjoy baseball. But if a country's culture includes censoring actual genuine political criticism then perhaps western culture should include not dealing with such countries or undermining that part of their 'culture' whenever possible.

All of the things you mentioned as possibly wrong in the USA are very widely criticized domestically and abroad and debated (the efficiency of debating against people who justify for profit prisons and inhumane treatment of prisoners and so on is completely separate matter of course) and not censored so they might actually change in the future and even if the government attempts censorship is some roundabout way it blows up in their face with even more attention to the issue.

Meanwhile Chinese government wants to use censorship and related powers to cover CPC and governmental abuses and misuses of power, attack its neighbouring countries with propaganda and so on. And people consider this largely okay.

>Meanwhile Chinese government wants to use censorship and related powers to cover CPC and governmental abuses and misuses of power, attack its neighbouring countries with propaganda and so on. And people consider this largely okay.

But they are a sovereign nation, it's their country and their laws and their army. I mean if other countries did it to the US because their values differ from our values, like say, getting Trump elected, you wouldn't think it was such a good idea right?

Also, take that down the road and we start souring relations with China? Where does that lead? Two nuclear powers shouldn't be antagonizing each other, and I believe telling China how to run their own country is part of that.

I'm not excusing what China is doing, but honestly, why does the US presume they have to fix it?

I'm not American and I hate Trump actually. EU and USA should start calling China out on their abuses more together.

China has also swore to only use their nuclear arsenal for retaliation (for what it's worth). And China and Pakistan antagonize India (and vice versa) more than any kind of political message ever could and they are all nuclear powers with shared borders.

I don't believe in absolute sovereignty where a government can do anything it wants to its own citizens and be free from even criticism or reduced business as the result. Other countries are also sovereign and should be free to not support China in what they do.

The argument about sovereignty is also largely invalid by precedence when it comes to China and USA and EU too, EU doesn't export drugs for death penalties, USA has a history with South America, Middle East and China/Taiwan disputes, EU and USA both called China out on organ harvesting from executed prisoners, etc.

This isn't about the government but about a single company vs. government in this case. I have no idea what Apple could do. Some people say - allow apps sideloading, another could be preemptive protective censorship (if I were in China I'd rather have Apple tell me I f.d something up with my message before anything leaves my phone than have the message be sent, caught by the Great Firewall and land me in a labor camp). I don't know, Apple has smart people, they should be the ones figuring it all out and put their money where they mouth is with respect to freedom, free flow of ideas and so on. Apple is one of few (only?) un-Chinese phone brands popular in China, all of the others are running customized android or something, are Chinese brands, subservient to the government, more easily influenced because they are based in China, staffed by Chinese, directly under Chinese law and within the CPC's reach, etc.

Apple has very privileged position due to their placement in the USA and recognition. They can try to stretch it, not just roll over and remove VPN as soon as China asks, what they did is literally the easiest and simplest solution, far below them. Due to their location they aren't easily attacked by the Chinese authorities at their own HQ, their top staff is American and thus values freedom of speech and free flow of ideas (unlike Chinese company staff back in China that might agree with government due to education/propaganda and never hearing anything wrong about it), their brand is the only one with such penetration, Chinese already have their own phone vendors that enforce censorship much stronger, they are a recognized brand and when they are gone it'll be very visible and might raise red flags in the upper middle class of Chinese who could afford their products, etc.

Also: As I have already spent a lot of time on this and don't plan to reply anymore and we might be reaching top comment depth I'd like to thank you for the good in depth discussion to get the brain going. I'll consider your arguments and adjust my future views and actions accordingly.