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I assume I'm below average (sivers.org)
340 points by mahipal on July 2, 2010 | hide | past | favorite | 106 comments



It's a nice attitude to have in a perfect world but what about this one? In many contexts, especially where there is high noise to signal, people will tend to believe/bet on/buy/hire/have sex with the guy who seems so (possibly over-) confident and makes lots of (possibly empty) promises over the guy who is humble and annoyingly realistic. I can't remember which firm but the leader of a cosmetics firm once said "we don't sell lipstick. we sell hope." I think that's true for lots of social interactions. So this attitude is better to have as a hat one can take on or off, depending on the situation. If you're alone or dealing with knowledgable people, yes, wear your humble hat. If you're selling something or yourself, wear the other one. Just to be clear, I don't like it how it is. But at the moment, being intentionally misleading sometimes, even to the point of eating your own BS, is a valid strategy for worldly success if that is what you seek.

EDIT: Just to be clear, what I mean by "intentionally misleading" is more like hyperbole than like lying. Steve Jobs claiming the "best phone in the world" is hyperbole. Bernie Madoff claiming the "smoothest returns in the world" is lying.


This is actually a very good point. Know when to be bold and confident, and know when to keep your mouth shut.

I've actually found a good heuristic to know when to do which. If I'm uncomfortable and insecure, it's time to be bold. And if I'm sure I'm right and the other guy's wrong, it's probably time to shut up and listen. It basically comes down to doing the opposite of my emotional response.

It's not easy, but when I follow that guideline, things tend to work out better.


When others are fearful, be greedy. When others are greedy, be fearful. - Warren Buffett


Charles Revson - "in our advertising we sell hope", http://quotationsbook.com/quote/5212/.


thanks for sharing that, it helped to find this name origin:

"Revlon was founded in the midst of the Great Depression, 1932, by Charles Revson and his brother Joseph, along with a chemist, Charles Lachman, who contributed the "L" in the REVLON name."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revlon


I've been doing this for years. The trick is to assume you're below average, but never let on.

edit: and yes, I see the irony there.



That's why people buy lottery tickets, too. Hope.


My take on this is slightly different. I think people have different opinions on what above average means.

Take the driving example. I may say I'm an above average driver, since I have good reflexes and can drive at high speeds. However, someone else might say they're a good driver because they follow the speed limit.

I think the reason everyone thinks they're above average is because they are- they're just above average in different ways.


That's an interesting thought. To say that 96% of people rate themselves a better driver because they customize their criteria to reflect what they value is quite insightful.


Humans think they are on the apex of the shrub of live, because they have big brains.

I guess fish would define sophistication as a nice swim bladder.


You might be right about that. For curiosity's sake, what do you base your reflex speed on?


Playing Doom.


Or playing chicken? :)


Your driving example is actually characteristic of how men and women differ on the issue. And the opposite is true of accidents: men, who fancy themselves better drivers, get in far more serious accidents due to aggressive and reckless behavior, and women, who fancy themselves safer/better, (supposedly) get in far more fender benders with slow moving or parked cars (possibly do to spatial perception).


You get a gold star for that comment!


I think you were being sarcastic, alluding to teachers doling out gold stars for effort. Sarcasm doesn't really play well on mediums without body language or intonation. If this was your intention, then I agree with you.

Talent and intelligence tends to cluster in individuals. People who are above average in certain skills tend to be above average in related skills; the converse is also true. Yes, certain classes of skill tend to have an inverse relationship with others, but I don't think it's a problem of the "definition of above average." Instead, I think people simply have evolutionary reasons for inflating their worth.


It's ok, I'm interpreting all of these downvotes as sarcasm.


Sarcastic quips don't play well on forums which value high signal-to-noise ratio, even when people can recognize the tone, unless they are exceptionally amusing or relevant.


Reminds me about my experiences in martial arts; notably Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. You will go in every day to train and spar and get your ass kicked by someone smaller, bigger, weaker, stronger, newer, more experienced, etc. It gets pretty rough on the ego, and if you're not smart enough to figure out that all the ass kicking's don't really matter, then you'll be one of the guys who drops out. But if you keep coming every day, commit to training despite losing constantly, you'll be absorbing more and more information and progressing faster than people who train strictly to "win" or stroke their egos.

This happens with everyone, nobody ever gets to the top by being the best from the beginning. Thats why the best fighters in the world are very humble; they've paid their dues and got their asses kicked every day to get to the top.

There's something to learn from everyone, and learning never stops. The day you think you're better than everyone else, or are "good enough", is the day your results start declining.


This article reminded me of this old gem from PG's "Great Hackers":

"I've found that people who are great at something are not so much convinced of their own greatness as mystified at why everyone else seems so incompetent."


Tangentially related is one of my favorite Bertrand Russell quotes: The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.


Also in the same vein: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst, Are full of passionate intensity." - William Butler Yeats



I'm not so sure about that.


For a while after I first saw that, my opinion of myself became slightly oscillatory. (Then after a bit I went looking for objective measures, which besides being more stable have the extra benefit of showing how to improve.)


It's quite possible for more than 50% of people to be above average drivers. If there are 100 people, and 80 of them cause no accidents, and the other 20 cause 10 accidents each, then there are 2 accidents per driver. 80% have less than average accident rate. By the same logic it's possible for most people to have a below average salary. Once extremes are possible, then averages start being less applicable.

However for things that have no extrmeme (e.g. height, IQs), the above average and below average rates are similar.,


Yes, you're exactly right. The quote that drives this home for me is, "Most people have an above average number of legs."


Good point, but if you follow through to the source of the driving statistic that Derek quoted, they're actually using the median rather than the mean. Also, you've defined the "goodness" of drivers as a discrete measure. If you defined it as a continuous measure (say, a function of risky behavior and fuel consumption), then it is impossible by definition for more than 50% of drivers to be above average.

(I'm guilty of self-plagiarism here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=191101)


I think the percents are merely anecdotal and the main point is to keep an open mind. Don't assume you are always right.


If you take the Mean. Hence the ideas of median and mode, both of which in this case would cough up 0 accidents as the "average." Importantly the majority of things talking about "percentile" are using a median for "average"


I doubt Derek really believes this. At least for me it would be paralyzing to think that I was below average at everything.

I assume what he really means is, "below average in x, but I make up for that with y."

I think it'd be hard to have done as well as Derek if you honestly managed to convince yourself that you were below average intelligence, below average skill in your profession, below average ability to motivate yourself and so on. It sounds like he's setting the y to "in being humble and willing to learn from others".

Otherwise why would you try anything hard if you believed it to just be a lottery with bad odds? Wouldn't it be better to leave it as an open question so that you're self critical and are able to suss out your own weaknesses?


See the top of http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning

The fixed theory of intelligence versus the growth/incremental.

You're right: no use to be an Eeyore and assume you're doomed.

But if you're dedicated to learning, then assuming you're currently below average keeps you learning harder than if you assume you're most of the way there.


The approach I find myself taking is to keep moving the goal posts by putting myself in groups where I genuinely am below average, or at a minimum where there are prominent examples around me of people much better than me at the thing I'm trying to do.

There's also something about approaching one's limits that helps distill genuine personal weaknesses and learn to either live with or work around them.


At the end of school (17-18 years old) I was top of my class. I got the best exam results in my town. I expected to breeze Uni, I sailed through the first year and some of the second, breezed some higher (3rd/4th year honours) classes for which I had a natural aptitude. I realised not long after starting that I was more intelligent than some of my class but by no means all but also tellingly lacked their drive and ability to knuckle down. There were several others that were completely out of my league in all aspects.

Sadly I'm still kinda there wallowing in that [self-]defeat 12 years on.


agreed, deluding yourself into believing that you're below average is about as useful as deluding yourself into believing that you're above average. considering yourself below average at everything is indicative of low self esteem which is really bad for your mental health. a much better approach is to take things you want to be better at, subdivide them into skills that you can actually improve, and then improve those skills. really average has nothing to do with it, as average is usually pretty bad. the average programmer, where a programmer is defined as anyone who has ever written a computer program, is not cut out to be a professional programmer. it is way more important to know your strengths and weaknesses in terms of meeting your goals so you can improve your weaknesses rather than worrying about being average.


Excellent comment. I also try to put myself in groups where I genuinely am below average, and I think it accelerates my learning curve. But it's also good to be Top Dog from time to time; the teacher often can learn more than the student.


> But it's also good to be Top Dog from time to time; the teacher often can learn more than the student.

Even in those cases, I think there is an advantage to choosing people who have the potential to become better than you are. It's really gratifying to teach someone something, and then watch them grow to the point where they know more than you do on the subject.


I think he meant the mindset in general, not exactly the strict meaning or interpretation of the words "below average".

I think he meant tackling each problem by assuming that you're below the average and therefore examining and solving it more thoughtfully and carefully than you would if you just knew you're so damn good you don't really have to pay much attention to it.

So, how I saw it, it's about emphasizing that you're not quite sure how to solve a problem and, in this, thinking everyone else does makes it easier to remember the meticulousness that you desire.


Yes! I love the way you put it. I wish I could have said it like that. :-)


It's not about being below average capacity, it's about believing that your currently-realized capacities are below average and below their limits. It's motivating. It's not about discouragement or not believing you can do something, it's actually the opposite; you know that you can improve in whatever you do so you're not afraid to learn from others. Assuming that you're "below average" in this article merely means to be teachable.

It's actually the opposite of what you're talking about here; Derek is not below-average capacity, he just has a lot of capacity yet to be realized and is willing to both admit that and take steps to improve.


The first issue is defining what you mean by "average." What does "average at driving" mean? If you're assigning people a competence percentage, then it's quite possible for a large portion of drivers to be above average (e.g. a thousand drivers that are 75% competent and a hundred drivers that are 25% competent). People often throw out the claim that "remember, half of everyone is below average," which implies a contiguous ordinal ranking for all people, in which case "average" is the same as "median."


My high school psychology teacher taught us about illusory superiority by another name (which is discussed on the Wikipedia page): the Lake Woebegone Effect.

This refers, of course, to Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegone, where "all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average."

Although that was years ago, I think about the effect often. Part of the reason it had such a profound effect on me, I think, is because the name is just so awesome.


Especially for driving, I think most people are above average. This is because the distribution of driving ability is negatively skewed, meaning the tail on the left is longer than the tail on the right.

If you were to put a number on driving ability, most people would get something like a seven (out of a maximum of 10).

In my opinion, there would be a very small amount of two's and fives. There would also be a small percentage that would get a one out of a maximum of a ten. (The drivers that don't follow the speed limit, make dangerous overtaking maneuvers, and are agressive towards other drivers).

I think those drivers make most people claim they have an "above average" driving ability.


I think you're right which is funny because many people (way more than half as this article noted) would say they are above average and say that only half of drivers can be above average

Only 50% of students can be above average (median) but 80% may have above average grades (mode)

People tend to confuse the two concepts


I think you meant mean not mode...


I think he meant mode, no? Mean, mode, median: http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm


You are correct I meant mean (I can't edit anymore)


I've stopped thinking others are stupid. I assume most people are smarter than me.

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

  "Every man I meet is in some way my superior, and in that, I can learn from him."
  -Ralph Waldo Emerson
I used to find myself thinking others were less knowledgeable or less advanced than me in a lot of subject areas. Now I always remind myself that if such a great person could always find something in others better than himself, then there's absolutely no excuse for me.


It also reminded me of my favorite quote:

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." -George Carlin


I actually take the exact opposite approach on life. One of my favorite entrepreneurial rhetorical questions is: "What would you do if you knew you could not fail?". Confidence in your own abilities forces you to try and break boundaries that you would otherwise fail to even start if you felt inadequate. I am proud to have a massive ego and I work daily on breaking down my fears and insecurities. The NUMBER ONE reason why entrepreneurs fail is because they give up. No one gives up if they think they're above average, exceptional, doing better than other startups. People GIVE UP because of fear, insecurities, feeling they are below average.

Just look at all the hot shot entrepreneurs that we all admire, they're all grade-A d-bags (Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, Larry Ellison, Donald Trump, etc.) and that's because they believed they were larger than life, they acted upon that belief, and they actualized it.


How does this have 275 upvotes????

Was it a secret that humans like positive thinking?

Why even compare yourself to a nonexistent fictitious "average" in the first place? Considering yourself greater OR less than average is a complete waste of brain resources all together. Individuals selected at random will, on average, be incredibly different from a theoretical individual of all "average" qualities due to the incalculable number of possible quality-types a person could possess.

The average person is a myth.


I think the real lesson from this is not assuming you are really below average, but be aware of the people around you, of their ideas and ways of thinking, and not dismiss them just because you think you're better than them, even if at first those ideas seems stupid.

It is a really common problem with programming in my opinion. Nearly all the brilliant programmers i've met have a self esteem problem. They think they're really smarter than everybody else and that this makes it ok to dismiss most of other people's ideas, completely missing the fact that they would become a lot smarter if they paid closer attention. Now i guess this isn't a generality, and very relative to my own experience, but, i guess the very fact of doing somethings that almost nobody understands will make that bias grow over time, if you don't pay attention.


I don't really pay much attention to the average, or to what other people "know". I mostly compare what I know to what I don't know, or more accurately - What I can do to what I can't but want to do. That is a sure way to keep yourself fairly humble - no matter how smart I am, there is never time to learn to do all the things I want to do.


I think this way, too. I assume I'm a bad programmer, businessman, communicator, etc. It has always served me well. It keeps me asking questions and always striving to improve. Even in the unlikely event that I ever knew what I was talking about, what would it have mattered? It's rule of the Price is Right: you automatically disqualify yourself by going over.


Wasn't there just a thread about the Dunning-Kruger effect recently?

Anyhow, yes; the more you know the more you know that you know little. The more experienced you are the more you know that you lack experience.

But that doesn't mean that you're not knowledgeable or experienced. This kind of worldview is a good basis for approaching anything, but it's not a good way to make decisions.



I am quite happy with my illusory inferiority. Deal with discontent by trying to outrun it, and you'll never run out of things to do.


It is really interesting to read the responses to this piece. I was surprised to find many people saying that if they followed Derek's advice it would harm their self-esteem. Assuming that others possess more skill than you does not diminish the value of your own skill. I don't think it is a zero sum game. I think the biggest realization for me recently is just that one should not underestimate people. It is easy to think that others (especially faceless others) aren't as good at something as you are. To quote the late great George Carlin "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" It is depressingly easy to judge, and usually we judge negatively, and usually we judge wrong.


On the other hand, lack of optimism considered a sign of poor mental health, seemingly regardless of the truth.

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=5...


Maybe they are optimistic because they know they are healthier.


The problem is how he defines 'smart'.

If you assume smart means you know more than an average person, it means you know a superset of the data/facts they know, and thus you gain nothing by asking them something.

However, if you assume smart means something different, like the ability to learn quickly for example, then it follows that an average person can know something useful that you don't already know, and thus you have something to gain by asking them something.


It pays to be able to flexibly switch my mindset in a way that is beneficial to myself. On the one hand, I want to always feel there is room for improvement. On the other, I don't want always be feeling inadequate compared to other members of my comparison group. It's easy to keep measuring yourself against an ever tighter, ever more elite group of people. The pressure is not always worth it.


This is a great point - this is a really easy trap to fall into reading about programming on the internet, for example.


"Most people are so worried about looking good that they never do anything great.

Most people are so worried about doing something great that they never do anything at all."

That was wow! Though, thinking you are below average outs constraints in some people making them believe that certain bigger things are "not for me". That can be devastating.


Always assuming you're above average is, of course, egotistical. You don't need to have a Phd in introspection to become mindful of this. Being egotistical is in most cultures regarded as a vice. It is easy to love oneself. Also you are being ungenerous with regards to the abilities of others around you.

Always assuming that you fall short of the median appears to be a conscious exercise in humility. Being humble is usually regarded as a virtue. Being humble is not so easy, cuz if it were the world would be a hell of a different place. The problem with this approach is that you are being ungenerous towards yourself and your own hard-won abilities.

But you know, there is a difference between assuming you are one thing or another and how you project yourself to the world. I would imagine that what is most difficult is accurately and generously assessing your own ability (in different situations) and also fairly and generously assessing the abilities of others. What is important then is that if you find that you are "better" than someone at whatever that you are humble about it and that if you are "worse" that you are not envious about it.

In short Derek I believe that you have swung from one extreme to another and shot past the more difficult happy mean.

I also believe that there are any number of false dichotomies at play here. I can assume (better yet, know) that I am above the average at something and still not act like others around me are dumb. Same with asking questions. Obviously if I think that I'm hot stuff it may appear that an instant consequence of this is that I'll stop asking questions and stop listening but it's very likely that these traits are needed to push you above the average in the first place and it would be _dumb_ to abandon them when you're out in front.

Those statistics appear to lack citations and are meaningless out of context as well, but that's another thing.

I'm sorry but I'm not impressed at all and I feel that these posts of Mr Siver's are framed in a superficial home-spun zen truths kind of way so as to drive traffic towards Mr Siver's site and the fact that he links to his book one of his comments below in this thread only serves to strengthen my belief in this respect. I would welcome any comments if anyone else has felt the same way or am I being in my own way ungenerous of Mr. Siver's motives. I don't know the guy and have no axe to grind and maybe I'm being too cynical but if someone wants to preach to such a wide audience I expect the bar to be set a little higher, that's all.


from the OA:

"To me, this was like finding out I'm a cylon, or this is the Matrix. Hard to accept facts."

That's because 95% of cylons don't think they are cylons.


While many of these are probably valid points, some such as the "better than average driver" one just doesn't seem valid personally. Unless you can demonstrate that I'm not average or better at driving, then just because everyone else also claims to be better than average doesn't mean that I'm incorrect. I've never had a speeding ticket or been in an automobile accident, and I've only been pulled over once (for a missing tail light in a truck I had purchased just hours earlier). Please try to convince me I'm average or worse—I think you'll fail.


Why would you assume that you're "below average", "average", or "above average" without any evidence? There's no sense in judging yourself with a shot in the dark especially if you're hoping to improve.


I like to think of myself as above average in my areas on strong interest. That being said though I love to meet people that are better than me, allows me to learn a lot.

I hate working with people and knowing that there is much point asking them a question because they will go through the same basic stuff I have already tried. Much prefer to be surrounded by really smart people and feel like a beginner than be the smartest person in the room and get some things done much more slowly.


...until other people I trust to be objective tell me otherwise.


These people are very, very valuable. Hang on to them.


Inspiring stuff, but I don't think you have to necessarily assume you are below average. You can assume you're great and create this state of mind naturally if you strive to surround yourself with exceptional people. It naturally creates a condition of student / teacher when the people around you are experts. I guess it's just another way of looking at finding motivation to learn. Great reminder regardless.


I think it's better to learn how to make a realistic empirical estimation of whether you're "above or below average" whatever that means in context, and recognize when it doesn't matter at all-- like with driving skill-- than it is to just assume you're below average. You can assume you're a bad driver or assume you're a good driver and it won't likely make any difference at all in your life.


I think that is better to know exactly where you are at, rather than to assume one way or another. That way, when it comes time to use your skill (or lack thereof), you know exactly how far you can go.

The assuming that you're below average thing - it is just a reminder to be humble and to constantly work on your basics - having a beginner's mind.


If you read the book "Learned Optimism," you'll see that the research shows this to be a bad strategy. All things being equal, you're more likely to succeed if you have an optimistic or best case view of things, unless the consequences of being wrong are dire. Pessimistic views tend to be more accurate, but also less successful.


This is a great mindset to have. For his next achievement, Mr. Sivers should try to combine sentences in paragraphs.


Hey daddy-o, get with the times. Sentence is the new paragraph. :-)


I believe its about attitude. One need consider him/herself to be below average to be attentive to what others say and not consider others stupid. Considering myself below average has not really worked for me, this has actually hit my confidence and made me apprehensive about sharing my views


Suppose there are three people, each of whom hold an opinion on some topic which contradicts the other two. So two out of three think they are right, yet at most one out of three actually is.

This is expected, when people disagree about the world. There is no need to bring psychological biases into it.


It's best not to worry about whether you're average or above average or below average. Instead, winners focus on setting personal goals and incrementally improving their performance against objective standards. Let others do the comparisons.


It is matter of opinion. Someone who always drives the speed limit may believe they are better than all the people driving over the speed limit. And someone who drives over the limit my scoff at the parking ability of the slow driver.


Sources? It's nice to just throw out percentages but where is the data to back this up?


If current trends continue soon everyone will be above average. Go education system!


If you're overly confident, assume you're just average. If you lack confidence, assume you're better than everyone else.

I think it's a matter of knowing where you stand in the range of low to high confidence, and then trying to balance it out.


Lacking confidence and thinking you're better than everyone else can lead to very bad things.


More confidence? I guess it not so simple since you're interpreting it in a different way than I am.


Confidence does not mean thinking you're better than everyone else. It means realizing it doesn't matter.


That is not always the case. When I have to present programming technical designs to a room of clients and upper management, I know that it matters. I completely know that it matters. But I research to the point I'm convinced I know more than everyone in the room. Therefore, I go into the meeting confident. And it's nothing to do with, "realizing it doesn't matter."

Convincing yourself it doesn't matter and then having confidence, is much more difficult to do than knowing and understanding each scenario and then having confidence. And that accounts for almost all scenarios. A social situation, presenting in front of clients, dating a girl.

Take them as extremes, using a speech as an example. Let's say all you think about is realizing it doesn't matter. Then you stand up to present and you are convinced it doesn't matter, but you start to realize you forgot to think about the speech. So you don't know what to talk about. Your heart starts racing, and your voice starts cracking, and all you can think about is your nerves.

Now let's say all you think about is the content of the speech. You stand up to give your speech, and realize you know everything there is to know about the topic. So your mind becomes engaged in the topic, and you forget any nerves that you may have had.


I think you're misunderstanding me. If you replace "thinking you're better than everyone" with "being more knowledgable on a subject than everyone else," then I agree with your comments.


There's a great David Bowie song about this:

'Don't believe in yourself, Don't deceive with Belief. Knowledge comes with Death's release'

I think he was trying to say: Don't assume anything, just be!

I really enjoyed reading this submission, thanks!


That's from the hunky dory album, a song called 'quicksand'.


I do know that ...


Average is seldom the right measuring stick. For example, I, having two legs, actually have more than the average number of legs. (I've seen a few humans with only one leg, but never three.)


So you're assume that you're above average in the category of assumptions about one's averages.

One the one hand, I don't want to call someone falsely modest, but on the other, that tag fits awfully well.


Thinking that you're smarter than average can also hurt your social life in more ways than imaginable.


Is it even possible to assume that, or is it ultimately a subconscious thing?


This guy always comes up with insightful yet humble posts.


Seriously, though, I'm above average.


It seems to me that the benefit that the author describes comes from listening and seeking to learn, rather than by viewing oneself as inferior. I have a particularly hard time believing that you can sustain a successful career if you're not able to sell yourself, something you can't do effectively with a negative self image.


I would often assume people I met were smarter than I was. I was proven wrong time and time again.


Is it better to be right more often, or to assume the best of anyone you meet?


The smarter you are the higher up you go in perspective the more you realize how much more information and work you need. But I wager this is not always a good or healthy frame.

Some days I feel unhappy because I beat myself up for failing my own standards. Some people live in the moment and they're happy, some people aren't. In the end it's finding a balance in life.


Like Derek Sivers, I can only be sure of being more humble than average.


could we go one day on this site without a blog that contains the epiphany that being less egotistical results in better social skills?

not to mention the condescending, lecturing tone in the post makes me want to vomit


I'm going to submit a blog piece about how the less vomiting you do, the better social skills you'll have.




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