(Sorry for the long reply -- if you're short of time, feel free to just skip to the arrow on the bottom since that's the most crucial part.)
> "Threatening an immediate ban" is not accurate. I led with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776923. The commenter responded with "I wanted to started this flamewar", which they subsequently edited to say "didn't wanted" (presumably this was a language misfire). Moderation replies can indeed look pretty bad when the comments to which they're replying have been edited to say the opposite of what they originally said!
Okay, fair enough, but honestly I feel like as a mod, in the context of the grammar errors and the nature of the rest of the comment (as well as the fact that you wouldn't expect for someone to so quickly admit "I wanted to to start a flame war"), you could've/should've probably realized it was a language issue. Did it honestly not strike you as odd that you'd get a response like this, and did you honestly not expect this might be the case? (Not an actual question I'm expecting a reply to -- I just mentioned it since I think it's worth thinking about.)
> When I ask someone not to start flamewars and they respond by not receiving the feedback and instead saying that they wanted to do it, this is usually a sign that an account doesn't mean to use the site as intended.
How often does this even happen? Do you people ever immediately admit they want to start a flame war? Again, see above. (Again, not necessarily expecting a reply -- just letting you know this is what I'm thinking as I read this part of your comment.)
> When I showed up the thread was already full of angry arguments about Hezbollah and 9/11. Perhaps you haven't read those comments? Some of them are probably flagged by now.
Those comments deserved to be burned with fire. But that's not really an excuse for such a public e-slapping of a different user who put a pretty civil comment whose entire goal was to promote something a peaceful view. (Yes, I have read your rebuttal to this... addressed below.)
> And yes, obviously the original comment wasn't nearly as toxic as the ones that followed. What you guys seem to be missing, though, is that the comment that sparks a flamewar is responsible for what it sparked. It's not as if these dynamics aren't well understood and entirely predictable.
Responsible to some extent, yes, but (a) you can't generally expect users to understand and predict these dynamics as well as a moderator like you, and (b) one is not entirely responsible for everyone else's response to a situation. Moderating such a comment (editing/deleting/etc.) is completely fine. But to go out of your way to publicly shame him in such an unprecedented and strong fashion that so many of has had not even seen before is what struck me (and I suspect others) as utterly disproportional, especially when the topic is kind of sensitive. Not trying to suggest that you should make this a regular thing, but I think if at least if it had been a regular thing, it'd have been less problematic.
However, one additional important (and non-meta) thing I want to note regarding "sparking a flamewar" itself is below.
> If you read that original comment fairly you won't miss the obvious (if unintentional) provocations it contained.
2 things:
First (less important), I only see one potential example of this, which is the use of the term "Right-wing media".
<biased>I think it requires a bit of a thin skin to be insulted by someone saying that "$direction-wing media" is portraying my country and people inaccurately, especially given what we regularly see on HN, but whatever.</biased>
I don't see anything more than that, so the pluralization of "provocations" and calling them "obvious" does bother me.
====> Second (VERY important), I do think your initial response was excellent. But in your second reply you suddenly went off the mod-rails and provoked a far more awful response when you started calling him "nationalist". Until this point, no particular person had been targeted, and the entire chain had been civil. (Again -- I very much admired how professional and otherwise excellent your initial reply was.) Yet you suddenly derailed and single-handedly flamed him like this. That was just awful and I really did not expect to see it from a mod who's trying to teach users how to avoid provoking others. It honestly made it that much harder to take the rest of what you said seriously and, IMO, completely sent across the wrong message.
> You guys are right about one thing, though: I haven't done a good job of explaining how I intervened in the thread, to judge by how much pushback my comments received. When that happens, I take it as a sign of something wrong in my approach. In this case the reason is that I was running out the door on my way to a workshop, and moderation in haste is never a good idea. Now I'm running back to the same event (late!) so my last half-dozen comments may not be much better, but I hope I've at least given more background explanation.
This is a great response here (and I agree that running out while typing a mod comment is not a great idea!) and yes it definitely helps. But my worry is less about the explanation for your response and more about the response itself -- see the last point above.
I've now had time to read this. I appreciate your dedication to HN, to having a good community, and your wanting to see a fellow user treated fairly. In this we agree. But I'm not seeing a lot to agree with in your analysis.
When you say that I "could've/should've probably realized" that a commenter meant the opposite of what he posted, consider what you're asking for at scale: that we understand what commenters mean regardless of what they say. It may have been obvious to you what that particular comment meant (but did you read it before he edited it to say the opposite, and understand it the correct way? If not, then the luxury of hindsight is at work here.) Different things are obvious to each of us. The things that are obvious to me are easy, so the question is, what about the things that aren't obvious? Translate what you're saying into a general moderation strategy and apply it to those cases and it turns into a requirement to be a mind reader. That I can't do.
In your analysis of the original comment you skipped over "Iran is not Saudi Arabia or anything like that". To me that means you're not reading the comment nearly closely enough to assess how provocative these things are. Perhaps this national swipe happened to align with your own politics and so was less visible to you qua national swipe (I'm sure that's true for most readers here). Nevertheless a national swipe is clearly what it was, however unintentional, and the point we're trying to make over and over to HN users—including our esteemed users from Iran, who are as welcome here as all others—is that it doesn't matter how unintentional that is or even how accurate it is. When you post like this, the flames that result burn the same way as any others. If we don't want HN to be a war zone, we all need to take care of it.
It seems like part of what surprised you is that I told the commenter directly that if we would ban him if he continued to ignore the moderation request. HN has a lot of comments coming through the firehose. I post a lot, but the total of what I post is negligible (a good thing!), so it's unsurprising that you hadn't seen a comment like that before. It's actually pretty standard:
It is intended to provide clear information about what happens when we've let someone know that they're breaking the rules and ask them to stop, but instead of receiving the feedback they argue and make protests. Why do we do this? Because for some users, it's better this way. For whatever reason, some people don't respond well to polite coaxing but the clear line, "if you do this again, we will ban you", actually works for them in the sense that they then proceed to use the site as intended. When dealing with thousands of users one soon learns that different 'channels' work for different people and one tries to select the channel that's indicated in a situation. Probably this was the wrong selection here, but (short of being a mind reader) it's impossible to make correct selections at scale when a comment says the opposite of what it means. Had I encountered a comment that read, "I didn't want to start a flamewar", I would not have switched to channel B; I would have stuck with channel A (polite coaxing), given a fuller explanation, and said something like "Please stop".
As for my having been in haste, to me that's the root cause of the misunderstanding because with more time to reflect I could have adjusted my reaction to be subtly different. Yet this too has a systemic aspect. HN has a small number of moderators and we all work weekends. HN never stops, but we have to. (We don't stop as much as we should, but that's an occupational hazard and a different story.) Sometimes moderating in haste is unavoidable because the alternative would be never being available to do anything else in life—and I assure you that would not lead to HN being better. So while it's bad to moderate in haste and we don't like to do it and we generally avoid it, trying to avoid it completely would be a mistake.
Thanks dang. The note about scale makes sense; I can't really tell how I would've read the comment before the edit, but it seems plausible that I would've read it similarly to you. And the point about how people respond: it makes sense, thanks. The couple of remaining issues I have:
First: it bothers me that you responded to everything EXCEPT what I had clearly indicated to have been the most important part of my last comment (I marked it as "VERY important")! I can't tell if that means you agree with it, or if you disagree with it, or if you have no idea what to say, or if you forgot to respond to it, but it was literally the only part of my comment that I really hoped for a reply to (which I mentioned in the first line), reproduced here:
>> Second (VERY important), I do think your initial response was excellent. But in your second reply you suddenly went off the mod-rails and provoked a far more awful response when you started calling him "nationalist". Until this point, no particular person had been targeted, and the entire chain had been civil. (Again -- I very much admired how professional and otherwise excellent your initial reply was.) Yet you suddenly derailed and single-handedly flamed him like this. That was just awful and I really did not expect to see it from a mod who's trying to teach users how to avoid provoking others. It honestly made it that much harder to take the rest of what you said seriously and, IMO, completely sent across the wrong message.
Second:
> In your analysis of the original comment you skipped over "Iran is not Saudi Arabia or anything like that". To me that means you're not reading the comment nearly closely enough to assess how provocative these things are.
Interesting! I'm not sure if this is a case of a misunderstanding. I didn't skip over it at all, but rather it never struck me as provocative at all, and it still doesn't. Let me put the context around the quote, because I think it is crucial:
>>> despite our theocratic regime, really I have to mention, Iran is not Suadi Arabia or anything like that. Girls and Boys do get the almost exactly same education, they have great opportunity to be a successful scholar in any branch of science they want
"Despite our theocratic regime" indicates pretty well that this isn't intended to be an Iranian-Saudi fight. There was no hint of the topics that usually come up when that topic arises (notably terrorism and funding of such). The author is clearly not happy with his own government either (again: "despite our theocratic regime"), so the nationalism accusation seems off too. The quote "anything like that" is clearly intended to refute the counterargument "OK, they're not the same, but they're pretty darn close right?". Best as I can tell, Saudi Arabia is pretty clearly chosen here as a point of comparison because it is much more likely to be well-known to and well-understood by the readers, and everything stated after it is merely drawing comparisons using as unbiased- and undisputed-facts as possible. You could honestly substitute any countries here with similar facts ("Italy is not Greece, we haven't defaulted in our history [I think this is true? not sure]", "Turkey is not Iran, despite our Muslim heritage we don't require women to have head coverings", "Britain is not America, we don't allow people to carry guns in public", etc. are some I can think of) and I would feel the same way: it's not provocative at all, it's just stating a well-known, pretty undisputed fact to draw a comparison to illustrate differences that are clear to the writer but not the reader. (If you still find the comment provocative despite all this, I guess we can agree to disagree here. Again, this entire issue is secondary to my first comment above.)
I'm sorry I neglected to reply to that bit. I guess I just don't share your perception at all? I didn't call him a nationalist and didn't flame him. I wrote, "The only place to keep Hacker News as a place for things that gratify intellectual curiosity is to keep it free of nationalistic indignation, however justified." This phrasing is deliberately general (i.e. about HN as a whole) and impersonal (e.g. "nationalistic indignation" as a genre). Not only did it not target a person, it was specifically worded not to target a person. I also recognized that the feelings behind these comments are justified, as way of making clear that (a) anyone in the commenter's place would feel the same way, but (b) HN's rules nevertheless require not posting those feelings in a way that constitutes flamebait. People on the other sides of these conflicts also have justified feelings. It's hard to remember this, but civil discourse requires that we remember it.
It's not the case that I singled 0xFFC out for harsh treatment. I was much harsher with the commenter who went on tilt in response, and I posted those replies at the same time (possibly sooner in fact, since I vaguely remember going through the thread bottom-up). Moreover, when he didn't stop, I didn't merely say "if you do this again we will ban you"; I went ahead and did ban him—a far harsher response. So I'm not sure why you feel so strongly that my reaction was unbalanced and inequitable. I certainly make mistakes and am happy to learn when people point them out, but I'm not seeing it here.
I agree with you in one way, though, and it's actually the most important thing. The way I reacted provoked a huge discussion about moderation. Any time that happens, the moderation was just wrong. (That's also why I've erred on the side of posting lots of explanation, despite its verbosity and complete offtopicness.) Therefore I need not to react that way in the future, and I will make adjustments in the hope of not provoking those sorts of objections again.
It's not always easy, though. I took heat from other side in this case too, not so visibly, but actually stronger. However much we don't want to—and we really don't want to—we end up standing in the middle of the firefight when people flame each other about things like this, and people on both sides of the conflict go away thinking we're against them, secretly hate their countries, and are in favor of their enemies. That sucks.
> I guess I just don't share your perception at all? I didn't call him a nationalist and didn't flame him. I wrote, "The only place to keep Hacker News as a place for things that gratify intellectual curiosity is to keep it free of nationalistic indignation, however justified." This phrasing is deliberately general (i.e. about HN as a whole) and impersonal (e.g. "nationalistic indignation" as a genre).
Honestly, this doesn't even pass the laugh test. Just look at what little sense this makes:
1. You said the OP was making a "swipe" at Saudi Arabia, when (a) the OP was simply using it as a reference point, and (b) literally no one else's reply to that comment took any issues with what was said about Saudi Arabia (whether in terms of accuracy, or in terms of civility/offensiveness, or anything else). And the replies about Hezbollah and whatnot were to someone else's comment entirely. But you still thought it was somehow provocative... okay, fine. Now here's the ironic part:
2. At the same time, the OP felt the need to immediately defend himself by saying "i am not nationalist" in a direct reply to your comment where you used the phrase "nationalistic indignation". This means he himself (a) felt your comments were directly targeting him, and (b) that you had accused him of being a nationalist. Someone else took it the same way too, and replied that his comment wasn't nationalistic. And now you, a moderator who seems to be trying very hard to understand things from others' perspective, are suddenly claiming that you in fact "didn't call him a nationalist", and that your statement was in fact "deliberately general (i.e. about HN as a whole)", not about the OP. In other words, he made a comment, you thought it was offensive to Saudi Arabia, no one else had an issue with it, but your view stands. Okay, fine, let's go with that. Then the opposite happened: you made a comment, which made him go into a personally defensive mode directly about what you said, someone else also defended him for the same thing, and now you're denying that you were accusing him of nationalism and that it was just some general statement about HN. I'm assuming you're writing this all with a straight face, but being completely honest with you here, it's so ironic and goes so directly against what actually happened that I'm having quite a hard time even reading it with a straight face, let alone being remotely convinced by it.
> "Threatening an immediate ban" is not accurate. I led with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776923. The commenter responded with "I wanted to started this flamewar", which they subsequently edited to say "didn't wanted" (presumably this was a language misfire). Moderation replies can indeed look pretty bad when the comments to which they're replying have been edited to say the opposite of what they originally said!
Okay, fair enough, but honestly I feel like as a mod, in the context of the grammar errors and the nature of the rest of the comment (as well as the fact that you wouldn't expect for someone to so quickly admit "I wanted to to start a flame war"), you could've/should've probably realized it was a language issue. Did it honestly not strike you as odd that you'd get a response like this, and did you honestly not expect this might be the case? (Not an actual question I'm expecting a reply to -- I just mentioned it since I think it's worth thinking about.)
> When I ask someone not to start flamewars and they respond by not receiving the feedback and instead saying that they wanted to do it, this is usually a sign that an account doesn't mean to use the site as intended.
How often does this even happen? Do you people ever immediately admit they want to start a flame war? Again, see above. (Again, not necessarily expecting a reply -- just letting you know this is what I'm thinking as I read this part of your comment.)
> When I showed up the thread was already full of angry arguments about Hezbollah and 9/11. Perhaps you haven't read those comments? Some of them are probably flagged by now.
Those comments deserved to be burned with fire. But that's not really an excuse for such a public e-slapping of a different user who put a pretty civil comment whose entire goal was to promote something a peaceful view. (Yes, I have read your rebuttal to this... addressed below.)
> And yes, obviously the original comment wasn't nearly as toxic as the ones that followed. What you guys seem to be missing, though, is that the comment that sparks a flamewar is responsible for what it sparked. It's not as if these dynamics aren't well understood and entirely predictable.
Responsible to some extent, yes, but (a) you can't generally expect users to understand and predict these dynamics as well as a moderator like you, and (b) one is not entirely responsible for everyone else's response to a situation. Moderating such a comment (editing/deleting/etc.) is completely fine. But to go out of your way to publicly shame him in such an unprecedented and strong fashion that so many of has had not even seen before is what struck me (and I suspect others) as utterly disproportional, especially when the topic is kind of sensitive. Not trying to suggest that you should make this a regular thing, but I think if at least if it had been a regular thing, it'd have been less problematic.
However, one additional important (and non-meta) thing I want to note regarding "sparking a flamewar" itself is below.
> If you read that original comment fairly you won't miss the obvious (if unintentional) provocations it contained.
2 things:
First (less important), I only see one potential example of this, which is the use of the term "Right-wing media". <biased>I think it requires a bit of a thin skin to be insulted by someone saying that "$direction-wing media" is portraying my country and people inaccurately, especially given what we regularly see on HN, but whatever.</biased> I don't see anything more than that, so the pluralization of "provocations" and calling them "obvious" does bother me.
====> Second (VERY important), I do think your initial response was excellent. But in your second reply you suddenly went off the mod-rails and provoked a far more awful response when you started calling him "nationalist". Until this point, no particular person had been targeted, and the entire chain had been civil. (Again -- I very much admired how professional and otherwise excellent your initial reply was.) Yet you suddenly derailed and single-handedly flamed him like this. That was just awful and I really did not expect to see it from a mod who's trying to teach users how to avoid provoking others. It honestly made it that much harder to take the rest of what you said seriously and, IMO, completely sent across the wrong message.
> You guys are right about one thing, though: I haven't done a good job of explaining how I intervened in the thread, to judge by how much pushback my comments received. When that happens, I take it as a sign of something wrong in my approach. In this case the reason is that I was running out the door on my way to a workshop, and moderation in haste is never a good idea. Now I'm running back to the same event (late!) so my last half-dozen comments may not be much better, but I hope I've at least given more background explanation.
This is a great response here (and I agree that running out while typing a mod comment is not a great idea!) and yes it definitely helps. But my worry is less about the explanation for your response and more about the response itself -- see the last point above.
Cheers~