People on HN who disclose suicidal intent are frequently told, on HN and elsewhere, to seek help.
That's correct, it's a medical emergency and those people deserve help.
But it's also important to remember that suicide prevention is struggling to find effective evidence based interventions, and that some interventions may increase risk of harm.
> But it's also important to remember that suicide prevention is struggling to find effective evidence based interventions, and that some interventions may increase risk of harm.
Do we know that for sure? Is it possible that suicide rates would have exploded without current intervention methods?
One major issue with suicide prevention is there is a lot of focus on "don't do it" and too little focus on "let's fix the cause". So for a lot of people, the cause might be their local communities' religion, which may also mean that the only available solution is not evidence based, let alone a solution.
Maybe instead of physically trying to stop these people from killing themselves, we should try to make them want to live. It is the only humane answer anyway.
I have a similar view, but with a slightly different angle. This is largely conjecture, but it seems to me that in the modern age, as our vantage point has expanded due to cultural and technological development, the bonds between individuals have become diluted, and we haven't figured out how to fully respond to that.
I would also make a case for a bit of a global existential crisis, as humanity has begun to finally understand the true vastness of the universe, in which we are an infinitesimally small flicker.
Heh, so the planet is having a quarter life crisis?
I'm not making fun of this it just sounds funny, and I'm sure the always connected nature does have a large impact. Before, "keeping up with the Joneses" meant a fairly small neighborhood community. Now you can see how you stack up globally instantly to people world wide and I imagine it's hard to not feel a bit lost in the face of everyone looking like they're living the life, constantly one post at a time.
Consolidating that without there being a backdrop of "it's a magazine" or "it's just advertising" probably has some sort of significant impact. It's amazing people can browse Facebook endlessly without feeling a little like they're missing out on something.
I don't really agree. I think inclusivity is actually part of the problem - when society welcomes anyone and everyone, people sometimes end up feeling alone or alienated because they aren't around people like themselves, who they share a common culture or upbringing with. This leads to less of a sense of belonging and community among people at large (not just depressed people), which leads to a more suspicious and distrustful atmosphere in general.
This can cut both ways. Take for example an introvert who lives in the world where being extrovert is valued and being introvert is looked upon as some illness.
Effort of being "more inclusive" either by the person themselves or by those around them can have the opposite effect.
Maybe society should be more accepting not more inclusive?
I agree with you, but I don't think (modern American) society is in a position to make that change. We don't live in a system designed to view people that way.
Talking to someone that understands where you're coming from and what you're feeling I think is helpful.....the feeling of being utterly alone and completely misunderstood in the universe can weigh heavily on the depressed psyche.
I think talking to people who are not so close can help; People who will not judge, nor increase the weight of responsibility that is living. In addition, of course, a medical follow-up; But the first step should always be to have an opportunity to talk.
We are also seeing the longest extended economic depression now this has lasted longer than the Great Depression of the 1930s, we have no WPA nothing to soft the economic blows, foodstamps are being eliminated so that poor people will be forced to steal to survive and risking landing in a Jeff Sessions owned private prison, the level if stress we are placing on working people is historically unprecedented.
Most foks who are in the middle of such a crisis don't particularly want to die, they want to alleviate pain. If they can find alternative ways to alleviate that pain without killing themselves, many would choose to live.
I volunteer on a suicide hot line; I got a call from a young woman who'd tried to hang herself, then googled how to tie a noose, and found the NSPL (National Suicide Prevention Line) number. Long story short, she was in an intensely abusive relationship; the cops had basically blown her off when she called for help; and she had no family resources or money. So from her perspective she was totally isolated and had no options.
After about 40 minutes of talking, where she discovered what it was like to talk to someone sympathetic to her problems and who believed her, she asked about alternatives to suicide, and I was able to get her in contact with a women's shelter who (to the best of my knowledge) got her into transitional housing and helped her start up a life on her own.
This woman did not need to die, and didn't need to live the particularly awful life she was in; once she'd found alternatives, she didn't want to die.
It sounds like you're dealing with some very painful things and feel like you have no options. It's hard for me to know what the specifics are based on what you're saying; there can be resources, however, depending on your situation and needs.
Thanks for listening. I will not kill myself, though I think about it every day. I'm just a loser. I do not have much money or woman. And when I left the church I lost my childhood friends for turning into an atheist.
But now I'm going to university. I'm going to turn around, I hope. I'm hoping things will get better. But I always think that the way is very difficult and that it would be better if the journey was over soon. I think it's some level of depression.
Congratulations on your work. It must have saved many lives. I keep thinking that if I do something as important to society as you, maybe it's worth living.
The world is larger than what you know now and you can always live a different life. I get reminded of this every time I travel to a different country. Usually there is a perspective shift. Feels like a blank slate, people who don't know anything about you. And everything you know, your history, problems, it's like it never existed. What I'm trying to say there is no need to keep score, there a millions of people out there, and cities and communities with better opportunities. Funny how sometimes it feels like there is no exit, but then a year later or 10 years later you look back and those problems seem irrelevant and miniscule. Try changing something in your life, do things differently. But also it never hurts to talk to a psychiatrist and get an assessment.
> The world is larger than what you know now and you can always live a different life. I get reminded of this every time I travel to a different country.
It's nice to have the privilege of being able to drop everything and travel. I imagine if everyone had that option at their fingertips suicide would be much less of a problem.
> But also it never hurts to talk to a psychiatrist and get an assessment.
I know people who have been put on sex registries and lost a great deal as a result of talking to a physchiatrist. It would be nice to live in a world where it never hurts, but that's dangerous advice incongruent with some surprising western disclosure laws.
I will say two things, I have no idea if it will help:
1. It is possible to be happy, despite a lack of "traditional success" (which often has very little merit beyond material wealth). I can't tell you how to do that, but please keep remembering this as a possibility, and then with enough time you can find the path that works for you - but you must look for it. In the meantime, yes, you are likely suffering from depression, your brain will tell you many things that are simply incorrect. Remember that also, it is very important.
2. Consider finding volunteer work, perhaps working with mildly mentally handicapped people, you may find genuine joy in their accomplishments. That is just one idea, but volunteering offers a path to profound happiness for many people.
There is "right to die" [1] advocacy along those lines, and different views in different cultures -- including antinatalism [2]. Actually things are getting better for those who share this opinion: at least it is not illegal to commit suicide in many countries anymore, and euthanasia is slowly getting available (though it's just for terminally ill people who are in pain, not just depressed or those who decide to die for whatever reasons).
Unfortunately, there's still social stigma, and the active prevention measures make it harder to acquire equipment for painless suicide -- so some choose rather brutal methods instead, like jumping under a train [3]. I wish there was a way to commit suicide (not necessarily euthanasia) in a more civilized manner.
Edit: another unfortunate thing is that it is not easy to discuss the topic, even on Internet. Taking the side of "suicide is fine" may have unpleasant consequences, and even this is a "dead" reply to a "flagged" comment, from a throwaway account.
I wasn't at that school anymore when that happened, but a classmate killed himself when he was 18. He stabbed himself in the heart, and he fucking succeeded.
He was a very kind and gentle person. Good looking and well built, even. Very into death metal. I still should have his tape of death metal songs he recorded for me. In hindsight he would probably have made a good friend, but he never dared to really reach out to people and we kinda overlooked him, took him for granted.
I think the trigger was having failed his drivers license. Other than that, and that he had strict and cold parents, I basically knew nothing of him, and I can't guess at his mind state or the reasons. But I know that they weren't good reasons. Time has this funny way of putting adolescence into perspective, and it makes stuff like this more tragic and pointless with every passing day.
I also worked at a cancer ward for a bit, and a nurse told me a patient once offered her some obscene amount of money to kill them. Of course she didn't do it, but, you know.. it's hard. But that's far off from something like my classmate, or Kurt Cobain for that matter, whom I also consider a waste. Toughing it out is always even more brave. I'm not in a position to command anyone to live, but I would rather err on the side of life. So many things are a matter of perspective, of lighting, and it's such a big thing to throw away.
If you're ready to kill yourself, you're not losing anything if you life longer, and suffer some more, do you? I mean, the second you die, your memory of whether you suffered 5 seconds or 50 years would be equally gone. I say this as someone who went through dark times, too. But whenever I pictured something like actually putting my neck on a train track, and a train incoming, I KNEW it would make the hair on my neck stand up and shoot up like a bolt, I couldn't even do it in fantasy. I'm glad for that, I know that's not something I can take credit for, and loosing the will is nothing to be ashamed of IMHO either, I never thought low of that classmate for example. But a tragedy is a tragedy, damnit! Don't be one :(
> If you're ready to kill yourself, you're not losing anything if you life longer, and suffer some more, do you? I mean, the second you die, your memory of whether you suffered 5 seconds or 50 years would be equally gone.
The same reasoning can be used to argue that there's no reason to live even a happy life: you're not gaining anything, since your memory will be gone anyway.
True. I kind of settled at seeing it rather like art. What happened and all traces of it might be gone ultimately, but it still happened. It's purely subjective why anyone would prefer one thing over another happening, or care at all, true, but I know what I prefer. And more than a happy life, I want a meaningful one :) Possibly a content one. It's temporary either way, but I want it to have been some things more than other things.
Just because.. that's the best reason anyone can give you for living anyway I think, there's energy available and it kind of finds way to get used, whether by people hurting eating each or by blades of grass being jolly good friends, it will get used.
This paper highlights that it had positive effects for those who had a previous hospitalisation with a suicide attempt, a study[1] also shows that 26 % classed as MA's (more than one attempt) regret their recovery opposed to 7% with a single attempt, so I get your point but these decisions are often not thought out and made rashly.
[1] Miranda, Regina, et al. "Suicide attempt characteristics, diagnoses, and future attempts: comparing multiple attempters to single attempters and ideators." Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 47.1 (2008): 32-40.
That's correct, it's a medical emergency and those people deserve help.
But it's also important to remember that suicide prevention is struggling to find effective evidence based interventions, and that some interventions may increase risk of harm.