I read a similar things a few weeks ago. They were saying that the U.S. (government through laws and legal system) centered on "fairness" up until recently. Sometime after WWII the focus changed to Economics and growth. I'm guessing it was saying this is the cause of crazy inequality and "the jobless recovery."
I'm not sure I buy all of it (the U.S. wasn't really a world power prior to the world wars, so they'd be dismissing that and other gains if it was their whole premise), but like this article, something to think about.
> They were saying that the U.S. (government through laws and legal system) centered on "fairness" up until recently. Sometime after WWII the focus changed to Economics and growth.
I absolutely agree with this. Considering the history and how we used to run public schools, it seems almost obvious.
American nationalism was at an all-time high during World War 2 and we rode that straight into the Cold War... 50 years of anti-soviet propaganda and public discourse, riding the post-WW2 American economic boom and global "anti-communist" imperialism. For an entire generation community-oriented principles, egalitarianism, collectivist ideas, and far-left leaders were demonized as Soviet sympathizers, replaced with rah rah unregulated capitalism, Ayn Rand-ian individualist, and military might.
If you've ever wondered why many modern American Christians blatantly disregard the liberal social aspects of Jesus/the Bible, look no further. WW2's morale-boosting propaganda morphed into a cancer of civil discourse, deeply coupling nationalism with the perceived indisputable success of American capitalism.
American society takes time to change because our 2-party system is dominated by unengaged voters, the uneducated electorate that votes without thinking about it... heavily influenced by the world they grew up in, and what they were taught from k-12. When many election results are +/- 5%, moving the average 10% in one direction has long-term consequences.
It's worth thinking about how our 17 year-old "War on Terror" will continue to change society...
So, what was the first Red Scare, Sacco and Vanzetti, or the Scopes Trial in the 20s about then? Many of the things you attribute to the Cold War-era were present in the 1920s USA. The biggest difference was isolation.
What's the difference? The first Red Scare was 3 years of isolated domestic violent agitation, and public response was largely focused on those agitators. The second Red Scare was a 50-year ideological war that saturated the nation, a generation raised demonizing concepts as "un-American" before becoming the teachers and politicians of their children. It takes time heal from that dogma.
Are you familiar with the phrase "cutting off the nose to spite the face"? Dogmatism is a fear-induced lobotomy, intentionally unlearning and stigmatizing certain solutions to problems... if dogma fatally poisoned American democratic capitalism, then our victory was pyrrhic at best.
In fact, dogma is antithetical to both capitalism and democracy, which assume an ideal rational populace. A rational society strives for improvements. They would have invested in more socratic education, deeper rational thinking, and an open fair evaluation of ideas. Ideas that pass rigorous evaluation hold merit and warrant experimentation. If aspects of communism could improve parts of our society, we should use them.
Dogma is indefensible, and I feel like that point should be self-evident on HN. Successful startups don't copy history. We solve problems by forming rational strategies based on data and logic, chasing "impossible" ideas because they are good and work. We understand that processes and technology are tools, a means to an end... why would socioeconomic theory be any different?
And anyway, America was never even close to becoming part of the Soviet Union. Nuclear annihilation was the big risk, but dogma does not work against ICBMs.
> And anyway, America was never even close to becoming part of the Soviet Union. Nuclear annihilation was the big risk, but dogma does not work against ICBMs.
Not necessarily. The communist ideology was so appealing to the people (and the USSR so good at spreading it world-wide, via various channels) that, if not for the radical anti-communist steps, it's not impossible that USA would have its own communist revolution (orchestrated from Moscow and led by the local "useful idiots"), like so many other countries.
More broadly, I don't think that being in an open conflict with a world super power is the best time for rational reflection. Notice how democratic countries suspend most of its values during the war (i.e. they can take your property if it'll help the war effort, they'll put you to jail if you refuse to fight etc.) - they're just impractical when under attack.
Why do you think communism was so appealing? Years of hostile discussions left both business owners and laborers at odds. Greedy companies refused to lower profits, and labor felt they deserved an equal share - especially after the world wars.
Ultimately, it's American business owners that were responsible for the rise of revolutionaries in the US. Early on, corporations restricted the political rights of labor unions while buying their own politicians. When laborers demanded fairer working hours, better working conditions, and fairer wages, businesses refused to compromise. When peace fails, people are left with the choice of abandoning hope or fighting towards revolution as a last resort. The USSR simply amplified existing legitimate anger.
I want to point out that the mainstream labor resistance was not about communism; citizens were fighting for equality and fairness within capitalism. The press always misuses scary words like "communism", in truth social ownership was secondary to being treated humanely. The government could have easily kicked out the USSR by stepping in as a mediator between business owners and employees.
> More broadly, I don't think that being in an open conflict with a world super power is the best time for rational reflection. Notice how democratic countries suspend most of its values during the war (i.e. they can take your property if it'll help the war effort, they'll put you to jail if you refuse to fight etc.) - they're just impractical when under attack.
Hahah, what? We don't suspend our values during war. Drafts fall under the social contract, all citizens are expected to defend the nation if called upon. The IRS always seizes property due to tax evasion. Industries always remain in private hands, we set production quotas because profit is not a right. We have interned people during war, but that's an artifact of ignorance rather than an intentional suspension of values.
Why do you think war isn't a good time for rational reflection? The battlefront requires action, but there's no reason for civilians to worry during a superpower proxy war. The US is massive and our enemies are oceans away.
Can anyone explain the downvotes? I am not saying that the pro-American propaganda was the only factor that decided that in the end US prevailed over USSR, but it's undeniable that it did contribute.
Down votes are meant to self-moderate against non-contributing content (shitposts), up votes are for content that inspires discussion, and not voting is for everything in between.
Immature people can't debate, so they express disagreement with down votes. Reddit was ruined by this, I'm sad to see civil immaturity spreading to HN.
I suppose down votes could be replaced with a "flag post", and a consensus driven moderation pool... or maybe reducing the weight of a down vote based on the voter's ratio of votes to posts (penalizing the non-contribution judgement of non-contributors).
That's somewhat misleading in 1800 the US population hit ~5.24 million vs England's ~9.2 million, it had more than doubled over the prior 30 years. Economically and Militarily England was much further ahead. But, unlike Europe the US's wars of conquest and genocide where mostly vs the Native Americans. Consider, Ohio only joined the Union in 1803.
Thanks for the background. That's why I thought it was interesting but had some skepticism and want to look more into it. I don't think the average person (including myself) knows enough about our history to be able compare things 50-100 years ago in the US to now. I remember hearing the US has benefited quite a bit by having oceans between us because after the World Wars we didn't have our cities destroyed. I believe that's one reason New York became a financial hub, picking up the slack from London.
Is it a fair comparison to say a more egalitarian policy made us "happier" when we still had segregation, women couldn't vote, and much smaller welfare/social services?
We also were able to sell arms to the allies for two world wars. At the end of WWII we had 80% of the world's gold reserves. This meant that during the Bretton Woods conference, when a bunch of treaties were drafted to require the use of "gold-convertable currency", that was effectively the US Dollar...so they just put "US Dollar" in the final language for clarity and made USD the global reserve currency among other things.
What use is power if it doesn't make you or your descendants happy?
How is being a world power a gain, if, by doing it, you sacrifice the very tenets that your country was founded on?
What use is power if it begins the process of curtailing freedoms and privacy for the minorities and majority (respectively), all the while aggravating the problem by funding problematic groups (causing a feedback loop)?
Ehh, I wasn't saying being a world power is an excuse for concentrating power at the top. It was a more to show how it's hard to compare because so much has changed in the US since before WWI. Back then most people were considered poor and we had no social services or welfare to speak of, the "middle class" wasn't a thing yet, we still had segregation, and women couldn't vote.
I very strongly recommend reading literature on the Industrial Revolution(s) generally, and on relating energy and economic growth. There's still a fair bit I've yet to read, but:
* Vaclav Smil, Energy in World History (1994). Highly technical, short, dense, but quite readable. Focus is on energy and technology primarily, economics and politics only remotely.
* Manfred Weissenbacher, Sources of Power (2009). Also technical, long, rambles, somewhat, and unevenly edited, but still recommended. Draws heavily on Smil as well as numerous other sources, and includes more politics (particularly recent) and economics.
* Robert J. Gordon, The Rise and Fall of American Growth (2016). A good technical history, a middling economics text. Really hammers home the transformation in the United States, 1870 - 2015.
* Daniel Yergin, The Prize (1992). A history of oil, which is to say, the last (and largest) segments of Weissenbacher and Smil's histories (Weissenbacher continues to a forecast / scenario), and much of Gordon's work. Focus is on energy.
Gordon's book is part of a series edited by Joel Mokyr on modern industrial history and development, there are several other good books within it.
I've yet to read, but still recommend, Karl Polanyi's Great Transformation.
And yes, the obsession with economic growth was a post-WWII thing. Mostly, people didn't want to see a return of the Great Depression and pre-war crisis.
I'm not sure I buy all of it (the U.S. wasn't really a world power prior to the world wars, so they'd be dismissing that and other gains if it was their whole premise), but like this article, something to think about.