That's really debatable. After 10~15 years of investment in Betterment or Wealthfront, in all likelihood all of your investments will be in the black, and there will be no opportunities for loss harvesting. But you're still stuck paying the 25 basis points per year unless you sell (and thus incur the capital gains, anyways).
I've got a fair bit of money in Wealthfront and tax loss harvesting has directly saved me quite a bit of money over the last couple years. For instance, the beginning of last year was tumultuous and their tax loss harvesting let me realize around ~55k in losses. The market then shot back up and my investments were right back where they were barely a month later. Because I had a source of capital gains in 2016, I basically earned free money.
So even if my investments were in the black in the macro scale, with tax loss harvesting I can realize additional gains from the inevitable dips that happen on the more micro scale.
I'm really talking about what happens after you've been invested with them for over a decade. Wealthfront has not yet existed for 10 years, so I know you haven't had your money invested with them for that long. The fact that tax loss harvesting can be beneficial is not in question.
Once you tax loss harvest once, you lower your cost basis on the investment to less than you originally paid. You can only subsequently tax loss harvest on the same security to the extent that the value of the investment is lower than your new lower cost basis. This will become harder as time goes on and you have previously tax loss harvested many securities.
Their white papers all use a timeframe of 10 years to show that Wealthfront is cost effective. I'm pretty sure they don't want customers thinking through all the implications of longer investment time horizons.
Oh gotcha with the cost basis raising over time. I wonder what strategies you could use to mitigate that. Perhaps buying a similar asset, holding that instead of the other, wait for the original to go down, and then re-purchase. Seems fragile and risky of course...
> Perhaps buying a similar asset, holding that instead of the other, wait for the original to go down
If you're presupposing the assets are similar, this is unlikely to happen to any significant degree.
The standard way to increase your odds of being able to tax loss harvest is to own as many different uncorrelated securities as possible. You can take this to mean a fund per industry (as Betterment and Wealthfront do) or even to the extreme of only owning individual companies. That way, some are up and some are down, and you can TLH. The more slices you divide your portfolio up into, the longer you'll be able to do it. But I think realistically (especially factoring in inflation), this strategy will stop giving results before 15 years.
What about the effect of a (let's be honest, inevitable) market crash? You'd be able to realize quite a bit of loss as that is happening by selling assets. Then as the market recovers and assuming those assets are actually worth more than the crash-adjusted value, you would be able to harvest losses again on that asset.
I think you'll see that in the last 90 years, even the worst market crashes don't take the index down to a level lower than what it was 15 years prior. To put it another way, pick any time in the past 90 years, the S&P 500 is always higher 15 years later than that date and every day afterwards. Maybe slicing up your investments into finer-grained categories than the entire S&P 500 will help ... but I'm very skeptical that anyone can TLH for long periods successfully.
If you want to pay a perpetual 25 basis points per year for Wealthfront or Betterment, go ahead, but it seems unlikely to me you'll come out ahead of a simple index fund if you are investing long term.
I suppose there is no harm then in milking the tax loss harvesting for as long as it is profitable and then reevaluating performance in ten or fifteen years to see if it makes sense to switch to a lower cost provider like Vanguard.
Like I said though, I have seen very significant returns from my loss harvesting. Even without a yearly source of capital gains, it definitely does not hurt to collect the losses and use them later in life (for instance if you sell an investment property).
There is a harm. In 15 years, if you decide you don't like Wealthfront, in order to move, you will have to sell all your assets and incur the capital gains.
This is true any time you move brokerages, is it not? If, at some time in the future, you chose to move from Vanguard to Wealthfront to take advantage of tax loss harvesting, you'd pay capital gains tax as well.
> This is true any time you move brokerages, is it not?
No. If you own the assets directly, and they are traded on the exchange (like the ETFs WF/Betterment use) they can be transferred around without triggering a sale event. Target date funds and the like would probably have to be sold.
I have my tax advantage at VG and my taxable has been all over the place finally settling with CS for now.
Okay, you have me a little confused now :) I read my parent as saying that in order to move investments out of Wealthfront, you'll need to sell and pay capital gains. I read your comment saying this isn't necessarily the case. There seems to be some disagreement here. What am I misunderstanding? The ins and outs of investments and tax ramifications can sometimes seem very opaque to me, so I appreciate any education on this front.
I stand corrected. I thought they had their own mutual funds that they charge an expense ratio on, but I took a closer look at their site and it looks like they put you in third-party mutual funds from e.g. Vanguard and iShares. Since this is the case, you can just do a transfer-in-kind to another brokerage if you want to leave, and this is not a taxable event. (Sorry for my mistake!)
Looking further, they don't support outgoing ACATS (what most brokerages do), but do support DTC which I'm not at all familiar with[1]. So hopefully you could do Betterment until the TLH stopped being worthwhile and do a direct security transfer to another brokerage.
Although Betterment offers fractional shares, which is confusing, not sure if they're actually ETNs representing fractional ownership of ETFs. I don't know how that works legally.
Which is why I said own the funds 'directly'. I'm not sure if WF/Betterment pool your money and then carve up % of funds or if you end up the actual owner. They may force you to liquidate to leave, which IMO is another strike against using them.
With regular brokerages you can move stocks/funds around with a transfer.
I think it's telling that in their promotional materials designed to show their merits, Betterment shows a maximum time horizon of 10 years. I think they know that their strategy is much weaker on longer time horizons, yet the fees remain constant. 10 years may seem like a very long time to some people, but when I invest I'm thinking about time-frames of 30 to 60 years. Meanwhile you can tax loss harvest yourself with a little education.
Couldn't they employ tax gain harvesting for users that are interested in the short/long term capital gains differential in TLH? They don't do this, but I'm curious.
i.e. cycle long term gains after one year of ownership so that they are more likely to produce harvestable losses in the next year. Obviously this prevents the basis gains of TLH, but wouldn't it be dwarfed for users whose long-term capital gains tax rate is much lower than their short-term capital gains rate?
Yea, tax gain harvesting is definitely something you can do. Though it's harder than tax loss harvesting. You have to take into account the entirety of a person's tax situation to do it, as opposed to tax loss harvesting, which only require knowledge of the account transaction history, which Betterment and Wealthfront of course have. To do tax gain harvesting you have to wait until late December when you have most of the information, and you essentially have to complete an entire tax return.
Yes, but this only works for those who are exploiting a difference between their marginal tax rate and the LTCG rate. That is, those in the 15% marginal bracket whose LTCG rate is 0%. For other investors it is preferable to pay no taxes (continue to hold the security long-term even after it qualifies for long-term tax treatment)
No, you are not understanding how it works. Your portfolio can be in the black every single year, but you can still use TLH to improve your returns every single year by harvesting losses in individual securities.
