I think people in Britain, and indeed many 'white' countries, are less bothered by the colour of one's skin than the tone of their culture and intent behind their immigrating.
If you're not coming here to integrate, but just coming for money and with no thought of being part of my culture, why on Earth would I joyously welcome you?
What would be said if I were to move to somewhere like the middle east and insist upon being a cider-swilling yob?
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Disclaimer: My partner is Italian and I'm a cider-swilling British yob. Well, a bit of a boor at least.
Brits are the less likely to speak Spanish among the immigrant community in Spain. Most of them don't speak the language at all and have no will to ever do it, even though they plan on dying in Spain. They stick together in all-English ghettos and do nothing to integrate in the local culture.
Based on your rules: Do you want Spain to send something between 350k and 800k pensioners back to the UK? I'm sure the NHS would be thrilled.
Of course, the difference is that Brits are "wealthy" compared to someone from a poorer country. It always comes down to money and never to race or culture.
Even funnier — a Brit whose father has lived in Spain for over 30 years, has paid taxes and run a successful business there and although parallel to the ex-pat community in the very far south, not really ever been a part of it. He speaks Spanish and has a polyglot of international friends from all across Europe.
He's now looking to move back to Britain over the next few years (at least partly), and having paid into his own private pension and as part of his working career, the Spanish government one — should he not get a pension and healthcare in Britain? If not, then why this whole EU thing? If so, then why not British pensioners in Spain, etc?
Besides, 'Old Brits living off Spanish pensions' is a bit of a tired trope — many of them get fed up after a couple to a few of years, leaving local Spaniards with cheaper housing options as they offload their failed investments before they do mave back. The ones who don't, try integrating. Sounds like a bit of a win-win for Spain?
Laterally, in my time in the North of England and here in London, I've found that Spanish (and Italians, and French, etc) all also self-ghettoise, so as an adult I've shed the shame I once felt at the behaviour of ex-pat Brits abroad because — surprise, surprise — everyone does it.
For starters: You're not replying to any of my points really, but I'll go along answering to yours so you'll see we're in fact not so far in our opinions.
Before we start, one of my points is: A Visa points system will disqualify an enormous amount of Brits living abroad, thus potentially sending them back (or illegally staying).
> should he not get a pension and healthcare in Britain? If not, then why this whole EU thing? If so, then why not British pensioners in Spain, etc?
That's precisely the point. He should get a pension. He lived well through the FoM period - why do you want to kill it now? Isn't your dad proof that the EU works for the people?
> Besides, 'Old Brits living off Spanish pensions' is a bit of a tired trope —
It's not Old Brits living off Spanish pensions. They are living off their own earned pensions, what are you on about?
The "problem" is that one of the arguments against EU FoM is "all those immigrants put pressure on the NHS" - when the UK exports pensioners (more prone to use healthcare) and imports young people (less prone to use healthcare).
You know your dad is not the norm, a good example of integration. The most common thing is for the pensioners to cluster in ghettos and hardly learn the language.
But don't get me wrong; I'm not complaining, I think they should be free to live their lives as they want. Can't see a problem with them preferring to socialise with people that speaks their language and shares other cultural references. Nothing wrong with that.
> many of them get fed up after a couple to a few of years, leaving local Spaniards with cheaper housing options as they offload their failed investments before they do mave back. The ones who don't, try integrating. Sounds like a bit of a win-win for Spain?
See? This is a problem. Some of you are incapable of self-criticism. Your migration is good, everyone else's is bad. You could pretty much say the same about any EU national going to work to the UK:
"they go to work there, pay taxes, pay rent or mortgage, spend money, many of them get fed up after a couple to a few of years, leaving local Brits with cheaper housing options as they offload their failed investments (or stop renting) before they do mave back. The ones who don't, try integrating. Sounds like a bit of a win-win for the UK?"
> Laterally, in my time in the North of England and here in London, I've found that Spanish (and Italians, and French, etc) all also self-ghettoise, so as an adult I've shed the shame I once felt at the behaviour of ex-pat Brits abroad because — surprise, surprise — everyone does it.
Bingo.
The difference is though, these other people learn the language because they haven't come to the UK to retire, so they have to learn. So, forced by the circumstances, you get an extra side of integration int the UK that you don't get in Spain.
> You have your view on things — I have mine.
And they're not so different. I just find curious why people like to overlook their own issues and highlight those same issues on the other people. That's why I said "funny a Brit says that :-)".
For the record: I live in Britain and I love the country and the people. I am just worried that, in my humble opinion, they'll self harm themselves in the name of anti-immigration policies; because they've been told foreigners are bad and Brits are good - when in reality there's no difference.
Words like "tone of their culture" are exactly the problem. Can you imagine if you weren't allowed to travel somewhere because of the tone of your culture? Do you enjoy being restricted from travelling to Saudi Arabia because you popped out of the wrong vagina?
I'm not from the UK but I can tell you firmly that words like "black culture" are just racist dogwhistles here in the US
Travel, or permanently relocate? There's a distinction - quite massive one. No one gives a hoot about tourists.
And I meant with the self-denigration in my post to imply that my own 'culture' has its own tone - as indeed does every culture. It's a question of whether they have the potential to be inter-compatible.
And my point is that compatibility should be measured on an individual basis, not based on where you happened to be born. Assuming that all people from one place share a culture is what got us into this mess in the first place.
It isn't already? And if it's not by individual reckoning, what construct from upon ahigh would you suggest be instituted to make these decisions en-masse, outwith local consensus?
All people from one place do generally share a culture, generally speaking - sure, any atomisation of said generalisation will throw up exceptions, but that doesn't make the generality any less valid in its local context.
We're monkeys - somewhat illogical meatsacks bound to our nature and emotions - not robots able to rewrite our own truths to fit some other's sense of hyper-morality.
Sorry, that's not reality.
- ed
Cripes that was a garbled response. Sorry - long weekend..
>All people from one place do generally share a culture, generally speaking - sure, any atomisation of said generalisation will throw up exceptions, but that doesn't make the generality any less valid in its local context.
How is this any different from
>All people from one race do generally share a culture, generally speaking - sure, any atomisation of said generalisation will throw up exceptions, but that doesn't make the generality any less valid in its local context.
Acting based on stereotypes of what someone who's born in a country may more or may not be is not only unethical, but stupid.
Look, I'm not saying citizenship or where you live shouldn't be a factor at all, I'm saying they should be near the bottom. In essence, the questions should be more "what have you done, what do you want to do, how will immigrating here help advance society?" and less "which country were you born in? how much money can you contribute?" which seems to be the way things work now.
