There are two types of negotiations.

One where it is a one off deal and you will probably never work with the person again.

The other is where you are entering into a business arrangement that requires ongoing cooperation.

The same techniques cannot be applied to both. Unfortunately a lot of negotiation advice doesn't specify which situation it is better applied to but it's worth keeping in mind.

I have observed differently: Salary negotiations seem to happen in a different reality than the rest of a company's operation.

Businesses will "underpay" if possible, but also readily "overpay" if the person brings in certain skills and if makes sense from a business perspective in that very moment.

I have not noticed underpaid people getting more respect or better opportunities than the others.

Most companies employing programmers do not want employees to know each other salary. This means that if you are an individual contributor applying to such a company then your manager is not going to know your salary at all. The salary is going to be negotiated with somebody higher up, whose reports are other managers and not ICs. I would not worry about this.

Are you kidding? I would be highly surprised if a manager didn't have access to the budget impacts of his/her direct reports.

Where is this place where such info is hidden? Because I definitely don't want to work there.

I've never had a salary negotiation with a future direct manager. And I've worked/interviewed in quite a few game companies as well as some non-gamie ones like Google and Microsoft.

I didn't interview with my current boss, but he definitely knows my total comp down to the dollar and stock/bonus/salary split - I've seen it on his screen during annual performance & bonus reviews. This is at a big 5 company.

Well, it's a company, which does not care that employees know each other salary then.

There are very few companies that keep salaries secret from managers. My manager knows exactly how much I make and how much everyone under me makes. His manager has the same visibility a level higher. What he doesn't know is how much his peers make or how much anyone in his peers' orgs make.

Salary secrecy can't really extend to managers unless you want your managers to do a poor job rewarding people. How's it supposed to work when someone comes to their manager and asks for a raise? "I think I'm underpaid and want a 10% raise." "Well, I don't know what you or anyone else makes so I have no idea if you're underpaid. Deal with it I guess."

I am not sure what are you arguing here. If you have people reporting to you then you are a manager and your manager, who manages managers might know your and your reports salaries. All I said that the first level manager, whose reports do not have reports of their own is unlikely to know anyone salary but his own.

>How's it supposed to work when someone comes to their manager and asks for a raise

Every where I worked, you (as an individual contributor)go to the higher up, who knows your salary with the recommendation from your manager, saying that you're doing excellent job or whatever.

> All I said that the first level manager, whose reports do not have reports of their own is unlikely to know anyone salary but his own.

I'm saying that you're wrong. I know what my direct reports make. So does every other manager at my company and every manager I know who works at any other company.

> Every where I worked, you (as an individual contributor)go to the higher up, who knows your salary with the recommendation from your manager, saying that you're doing excellent job or whatever.

That sounds really dysfunctional and bureaucratic. Now you're asking the manager to stick his neck out and ask for a raise for one of his reports when he doesn't even know what his reports make.

Hmm interesting. I am poster higher up which started this chain. I worked in 4 places. In all cases my manager knew how much I make.

I imagine in some large companies depending on how top down there, they don't do it. But I wouldn't present it as a rule.

So how does asking for a raise work. You work with you manager all year. Then all of the sudden you go over his head at the end and talk to his boss about wanting a raise? I have never seen that. Sounds a bit strange.

Anyway, original point still stands. The lowest level boss which does know what you do and sees that you have a $50k higher salary and yet do work that not really $50k extra worth will put a target on your back.

Well, since I haven't seen what you described other than in small firms, where the first level manager was also the last or the one before last, let me ask you this: does the lowest level manager have the authority to give raises? If not, then does not the raise come from over his head anyways? And if yes, then why is not he or she negotiating your salary from the start? Or is he? If he is then, again, there shouldn't be a problem since you both agreed that your compensation is fair for both sides.

Not sure if he has authority. Not all time. Yes for a small company he did. For a large company I discuss it with him because he is the one who knows what I did last year best. If I got to higher ups and say "give me more money", they'll say something like "I think I've seen you in the kitchen, or the conference room". Well, in reality they'll read a performance review probably from my manager. And then probably talk to the manager anyway...

But what happens is I talk to my manager and they they'll go find out and make a case for me if they are not authorized to do it themselves.

> If he is then, again, there shouldn't be a problem since you both agreed that your compensation is fair for both sides.

Well that was the original premise of the post. If negotiating like one negotiates buying a car, showing counter offers and so on. They might feel like you tricked them, if you then don't do the job to the level of your salary.

>They might feel like you tricked them, if you then don't do the job to the level of your salary.

This will also be a problem if you do worse job than expected and your manager does not know your salary. Simple solution - don't do a bad job if you don't want to be fired.

> So you "tricked" your future manager to give you a $50k more

In big companies, the managers don't have too much input, and no skin in the game. Plus, it isn't a "trick" and negotiating isn't unprofessional - it's just business.