And yet nothing much changed in the needs of webapps or in the Javascript language in the past two years.

And if we CAN'T "make decisions today based on the state of things years ago", then we're really screwed.

> And yet nothing much changed in the needs of webapps or in the Javascript language in the past two years.

But Ember has likely come a long way in that time - I think this is mcardleliam's point.

For me the creation of ember cli was like admiting their framework didn't work as good as they intended.

I'm sorry, Ember has come a huge way in 2 years. We've got 2.0, which was a big leap forward, a whole bunch of concepts were refined/removed or changed.

Also you're flat out wrong: Ember-cli isn't really anything to do with the framework. You don't need it to write Ember apps, it's just the communities command line tool for managing Ember projects. That's all.

This is only theoretically right.

Practically, there are Ember modules/extensions/features that require Ember-CLI to work or are a huge pain to work with, if you don't use the CLI...

for example animation libraries or glimmer.