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We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11789356 and marked it off-topic.


You are misrepresenting his argument about frameworks. Re-read the first paragraph of his post:

"Apple's shared frameworks are very useful for sharing executable code and its associated resources among multiple applications, but were historically not designed to be created by authors of consumer applications. I discourage developers from creating frameworks as a method of sharing code, because they encourage code bloat, increase launch times, complicate the developer's fix/compile/link/debug cycle, and require extra effort in setting up correct and useful developer and deployment builds."

and the last one:

"Creating shared frameworks is a lot of hassle for third-party developers of consumer software, introduces instability into the development process, and encourages slower and larger applications. Code sharing is better accomplished through creating new directories for shared code in subversion and judiciously including only the files and resources needed by any application in its Xcode project."

http://blog.wilshipley.com/2005/11/frameworks-are-teh-suck-e...

(Note: framework here refers to a specific way of organizing compiled code in OS X for sharing: .framework bundles)


And none of his claims about the problems with frameworks are true. Frameworks are trivial to create and use. In fact, with most of my apps, the app itself is just a simple wrapper around a bunch of frameworks.

Which, by the way, is also how Xcode is set up. Have you looked how large the actual binary is? On my system, it's 35K.

-rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 35K May 1 22:12 Xcode*

Holy compression, Batman! No, actually, they just moved all of the actual code out into frameworks. Just like the clang and llvm teams put all their code into libraries, which gives us tools like the static analyser and Xcode-integrated syntax tools.

So even if I don't have plans to share the code yet, I still just put it in a framework target that's in the same project as the app itself, which takes around 30 seconds, and afterwards is no extra effort.

And the idea that only Apple can create software that is worthy of reuse...well fanboys be fanboys, but it actually isn't true.


No, let's skip technical details and your opinion about frameworks as code sharing primitive and get back to your words. You literally claimed that while Wil made money "leaning heavily on some of the most well-designed frameworks in the industry", he said "frameworks are bullshit".

This isn't true: he said that people shouldn't use a specific way of sharing code in OS X, not that "frameworks are bullshit". He even said that "Apple's shared frameworks are very useful for sharing executable code and its associated resources among multiple applications". He also praises Cocoa, the framework, and many other frameworks created by Apple.

So, yes, you did misrepresent Wil's opinion, and you should take your words back.


Geez, you can read, can you? It's right there in the title and even in the actual URL:

"Frameworks are Teh Suck, Err".

Let's look at the urban dictionary:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teh%20suck

2nd entry:

"The absolute worst thing ever, completely beyond bad, lower than horrible, and more crappy than explosive diarrhoea"

So when I wrote "bullshit", my only crime was that I was being euphemistic. Guilty as charged. And as I wrote, he makes this farcical distinction between Apple and the rest of the world.

So, no, I did not misrepresent Wil's opinion, apart from softening it up. So you should take your words back.


So you can read, but for some bizarre reason are only limited to reading the title?

Because he went for an extended explanation what that meant, besides the funny/link-baity title -- which is exactly what the parent wrote.


>In fact, with most of my apps, the app itself is just a simple wrapper around a bunch of frameworks.

Yes, but he writes, and presumably talks about, a little more ambitious apps.




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