We have a huge (10'x13') Antique Wool Persian Rug made in Kashan before the revolution. Not quite sure how old it is, but the dealer claimed it was likely first imported in the 1930s. We also have several cheaper machine-made Persian-style rugs from a few different places.
The real one is the centerpiece of our entire house, and a treasure. It definitely has a quality and beauty that the machine-made ones don't possess. They're one-of-a-kind works of art. At some point it was repaired and there's a little difference in the dye colors where the patching was performed. Knowing it has some history really adds to the feeling of value. It's an antique you can walk and lay down on. If our home caught fire, I would probably grab my computer and that rug and leave the rest to burn.
It completely transformed the room we put it in and brought it grace and character. The machine-made rugs we put furniture on top of and are already starting to fall apart in places, even the nicer one we paid lots of money for before we got smart.
If you're patient and look around, you kind find them at fairly steep discounts, and now that the market is opening up, I expect the prices to drop even more. Our rug was appraised at something north of $15k, but we bought it for less than $2k. Quick checks on the internet show me similar rugs for around $6.5k. (here's one that looks superficially like ours http://esalerugs.com/red-palace-rugs-kashan-persian-rug-2219...)
When we decided to get a rug, we went through lots of research and shopping, finally decided on a Persian-style rug and hit rug markets and dealers all over our area. For us at least, the color schemes of the made-in-Iran rugs (over the often cheaper Pakistan, Turkish or Afghan handmade rugs) really was unmatched in hitting our taste.
Sorry if this sounds like a commercial, but these really are special objects. It's a shame that there's so many middle-men in-between the weavers and the buyers, I'd much rather have paid the weavers directly, but stupid global politics get in the way. I'm very excited for the slowly thawing relations with Iran, there's so many really wonderful cultural things I'm hoping come exploding out of that country.
This might be just my perception, but persian rugs always seem to be on a great sale. Special price, only for you, my special friend etc. I have a big aversion to buying a rug, because the whole process feels like I'm being swindled.
I think that's a culture clash. Persian culture is very big on bargaining. My father was an immigration lawyer and he told me that if he had a Persian client he would have to increase the price and allow himself to be bargained down to the normal price.
I'm with you, I prefer not to bargain but I don't think it's fair to equate bargaining cultures to swindlers.
I wonder if this inverse effect happens. Suppose someone from a bargaining culture is forced to deal with someone from a retail culture. Do they feel like they're being ripped off because they weren't given a chance to ask for a lower price?
I remember a local rug dealer who was "going out of business" for 20 years and was always running "liquidation" sales.
I've almost never seen rugs without some ridiculous markdown...at dedicated rug dealers. However, department stores tend to just sell them at closer to what the correct price is without all the fakery. I usually advise people to buy from those more "reputable" sellers because you won't play those games with them.
You'll notice I quoted the "sale" price in the link I provided (http://esalerugs.com/red-palace-rugs-kashan-persian-rug-2219...), you'll pretty much never find a rug listed for the original price. In this case the "original price" was $32k, which is absolutely absurd for that rug. People who buy at that price also probably own the Brooklyn Bridge and the Moon. The "online discount" of $13k is more like what you'd find as the starting price at most dedicated dealers. I'd expect to see that rug for maybe $8-10k at a department store. Hit on a big holiday sale and get some other discounts and you could easily walk away with that rug for maybe $4-5k.
You're expected to haggle. I once walked into a rug store, looked at a rug and the guy said it was $13,000. I said, "that's way too much! Can you knock something off?"
He said, "OK, for you, $3,000."
I probably could've gotten him down under $2,000 if I really wanted the rug.
My grandparents had Persian rugs imported in the 1920's that were simply beautiful.
Hope some future Iranian enters YC and cuts out all the middlemen. It would be easy to offer premium prices to the best craftsmen and still offer attractive deals over the web to North America and Europe. Probably the only way I can afford one.
Certainly a tangent, but can anyone share tips on where/how to pick up traditional wool rugs without getting taken for a ride? I get the distinct impression most vendors are buying way low and angling to sell way high...
Just as a note to you: when I drive through Teheran, there are often rugs in the middle of the road so cars drive over them. This is how they are made "old" and sell for many, many, dollars.
We found ours, at all places, at a Lord & Taylor (or Nordstrom can't remember which one now) travelling rug show. List price was $11k, the show had it on "sale" for $4k we took advantage of a combined holiday sale and some other discounts (we signed up for a store credit card to get another 15% off of our first purchase) and after all the discounts stacked ended up paying around $2k.
Internet prices put it at similar rugs at between $6k-$12k.
Home Depot and a few other places have similar traveling rug shows. Harder to haggle at those vs. a rug store, but I feel like you get fairer pricing. The store "Homegoods" in the U.S. also has a rug section that will on occasion stock hand-made rugs at very good prices.
I would personally avoid the dedicated dealers as they'll pump up the price and take advantage of uninformed consumers. Definitely worth it to study up a little on what contributes to pricing variability in rugs (location, material, knot density, etc.)
If you travel, I've seen very good prices in and around the middle east (sounds obvious, but hey)
I have bought all of mine at physical auctions. Once you go to a few you learn who the dealers are and bid just above them - they can only go to wholesale prices while you can go to retail. Just make sure they are not the one selling the rug in the first place - come in on the last possible moment tends to make it hard for them to shill bid you up.
Look for an estate sale. (Not an auction.) When my mother passed away, we had a firm come in and handle the estate sale. They priced the Persian rug that she had gotten from her mother at $400-$500. My sister did not want to sell it and took it home. The Persian rug dealer she talked to about some repairs said it was worth around $8,000 before being repaired.
There are several reasons for the dying popularity of Persian carpets
1.Changes in tastes: beautiful though they are, they do not go with much of what passes for modern decor
2.The availability of substitutes: many other alternatives are available, including Finnish, Swedish, Danish,German, Indian, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Chinese carpets.
3.Concerns about authenticity. Was that "Persian carpet" made in Iran or in Turkey or in China ?
4. Transaction costs: carpet dealers in local shopping malls vary from dodgy to very dodgy. Some of them have had "going out of business sale" signs up for years. I know that they will try and rip me off. I do not want to waste time bargaining with them and trying to spot the genuine items in their stock.As for learning about knot-per-inch and all the terminology that goes with it, heck it is just something to put on my floor.
5. Here is a typical ad:
"Retail Price: $7836
Online Discount Price: $3134
Price After Extra 50% Off: $1567"
What is a fair price for this ? 1567 ? 567 ? 67 ?
What does this even mean ?
Sure sounds dodgy.
How much would their $400 6x9 rug cost in the US after markups?
I'd love to have a few nice rugs but that price seems very low. I'm curious at what volume does it make sense to go there, buy, and ship back rather than buying ones that have already been imported.
It depends mostly on knot count and condition. Higher knots per inch, the higher the price. Silk (instead of wool) makes the price 3-4x higher.
A fairly low knot count (about 100 kpi) Shiraz rug of about that size would run somewhere between $1300-$5000 most likely. If you hunt around I would expect a "great deal" to be ~$1000.
Once you get into higher knot counts (300+ kpi) the price increases very quickly as well. But I personally think it's important to see what that knot count difference looks like in person. There's a very big perceptual jump in quality and it's almost like going from 8-bit graphics to modern 4k in terms of how the design looks.
I had a Persian rug mouse pad that I really enjoyed and got a lot of nice complements on. Just a dye-sublimation printed imitation, but it still looked and felt luxurious. I wonder if anyone makes real Persian mini-rugs that size, for doll houses perhaps?
I wrote a cellular automata that you can start with a symmetrical configuration, that I called a "Persian Rug Enumerator" because each frame looked like different Persian Rug! You could make a lot of unique mouse pads that way.
I feel conflicted about "Persian" rugs. So much child labor goes into making them that by buying one you are helping support a dispicable trade in human misery. At the same time they can be highly beautiful and practical. I have decided to take the same approach as with Ivory - old ivory is fine, but new Ivory is not. I have a few antique rugs that I really love, but I would not buy a new one.
But unlike ivory, that cannot be made without dead elephants, it possible to create a Persian carpet without child labour. Children used to mine coal, but we still have coal. So we can still have Persian carpets.
I used to live in the middle east and when I left I brought a medium-sized pile of them. They are great and very utilitarian. The one in my living room is nearly a hundred years old and has seen many generations of dogs, cats and in all probability goats. They can be cleaned an repaired in a way rare for modern products.
Sure, but it is really hard to ensure this as a consumer. Most rugs don't come with a label "made with slave labor". By only buying old you get to avoid supporting continued abuses while still having an item of beauty and practicality.
A lot of the stuff you use every day is made with what is practically slave labor, often child labor too. Not that it makes it any better, but there is no reason to single out rugs.
I think there is distinction between child labor and child exploitation for labor.
In my summers as a kid I have done some agricultural work helping my parents and their friends. I was hard but rewarding (also hitting someone with a rotten potato - at age 8 - feels like watching Hamilton).
And seeing the insane workload that some modern parents put on their kids for academic advancement - the line can get blurry.
There is world of difference between a small family operation in which the kids help (which is what was presented in the article) and work you till your fingers bleed workshop.
Kids have always provided labor - and misery there is optional. What we should look for is if the labor hurts the child or helps him and his family.
"Misery" is a relative term. A 12 year old working in fields might seem harsh to an American but for an Indian or Bangladeshi kid that is an opportunity because the alternative is dying on the street devoid of any help.
Many top American brands use the services of slum sweatshops in USA directly and indirectly and employ children in harsh conditions but this work is better than working as child prostitutes of beggars. Globalization helped these slum children get better, earn more and live a better life than in past even though as per American standards one might see it as a miserable life.
Trading more and more with poor countries is the best way Americans can help the poor countries. People complain about China's sweatshops and work conditions but in reality Chinese are far better off than 30 years and and the labor value and conditions have improved steadily over last 3 decades.
Yes, but you would rather have them starve. I did some odd jobs as a teenager after school for cash, why is that a bad thing? Is work something that only adults can do?
> I did some odd jobs as a teenager after school for cash, why is that a bad thing?
I think that this indicates a disconnect between your reality and theirs. Whether or not the work improves their condition, comparing what they live through with "doing odd jobs as a teenager for extra cash" sounds a bit like you're not living in reality.
I'm all for avoiding purchases of products that involve child labor. It is worth researching how pervasive that is, because many products manufactured overseas suffer from this problem. It is the main reason I buy into "Made in the USA." Not because I am overly patriotic (I'm not.), but because it improves the odds that child labor was not involved in its production.
I am not sure I agree with Kant. There are many things I personally would do or not do, but which I don't feel should be universal. Good arguments can be made for buying new rugs, but I don't want to have something in my home which I feel might be helping perpetuate child slavery. This is just my personal moral judgement and not one I want to impose on anyone else.
But does it perpetuate it, or help them escape it faster? My grandmothers both worked as children in Europe. Nowadays I'm a software developer who sits on his ass and complains if I'm working for than 8h/day. The same pattern seems to have been the norm in most (all?) developed countries.
I think having children locked up in factories away from their family and working under conditions where they lose their eyesight and health is not something I personally want to support.
What do you believe is the better alternative, though? How will the better alternative come about?
Currently a child has a job making rugs. The conditions of their lives are such that this is the best option for them. This is deplorable, but it's the scenario we're hypothesizing.
If everyone boycotts their rugs, then they'll lose that job, and they'll have to pursue the next best option, which by definition is strictly worse than their current and best option.
People in this area might be starving and digging through trash to look for food and valuables [1], if not for this work. This unskilled labor provides some degree of actual income, which is better than foraging garbage to survive. This income might support the rest of their family, such as grandparents or younger children who can't work. Their younger siblings might be depending on them. Perhaps the younger sibling can afford to go to school because the older sibling works. If you're in poverty to that degree, isn't any income better than none?
I am interested to understand your theory for how your refusal to buy carpets (that you would otherwise buy) will help the children be better off in the end. Consider in the sequence of events that will occur if you (and many people) do buy a carpet they made: they have at least some income to support themselves and their family. They might not go to school, but at least they're not starving in the street. Perhaps they can make life better for their siblings.
Consider the sequence of events that occur if you (and many people) boycott their carpets and the factory goes out of business. The factory is the only business in town catering to foreign buyers and bringing income into the area. What's next for them?
Consider the adult rugmakers in Iran who were the subject of US trade sanctions (the article talked about this) - deprived of their primary source of income, they became worse off.
I would understand better a position like, "I am not going to buy their rugs. Instead I'm going to go to India and help build schools and teach in them, and provide food for their families." This would be doing something to help lift them out of poverty that's better than buying their rugs. However, if the choice is between doing nothing at all and buying their rugs, which do you think is better for them? One does nothing at all for them, and one gives them at least a little income. Compare these two alternatives and consider which is better for the people involved.
These notions are why I think the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics [2] is important to reason about and consider. When we think about these situations, there is a human emotional feeling that, by interacting with a situation we somehow become responsible for it, as if we are sanctioning it:
> The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics says that when you observe or interact with a problem in any way, you can be blamed for it. At the very least, you are to blame for not doing more. Even if you don’t make the problem worse, even if you make it slightly better, the ethical burden of the problem falls on you as soon as you observe it. In particular, if you interact with a problem and benefit from it, you are a complete monster. I don’t subscribe to this school of thought, but it seems pretty popular.
The article goes on to outline reasons why this thinking is fallacious and I think it makes a pretty good point.
Of course, you are allowed your preferences for what kind of products you buy, and you obviously are not accountable to me. However, the way you're writing about this gives me the impression that you believe that your choice is ethically the right one, or in some way makes the world a better place compared to the alternative choice. If you believe your choice is the ethically right one, then hopefully you are willing to explain why that is so - to explain how the choice leads to better outcomes for the people in question.
The part that I am trying to understand better is how denying someone trade or income makes them better off - someone who is working a job making products because it's the best available option for them (bad though it may be). Per the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics, it seems to me that buying rugs from someone in poverty makes them "slightly better" off since they have income. Boycotting their rugs deprives them of income that they badly need, and potentially puts them on the street.
Anyone in the position to do so is free to donate to charity, or fly to Indian and help people directly. These actions might do more for the people involved than buying rugs. However, let us recognize that most consumers will not take these actions. Let us consider the choice of whether to either boycott Persian rugs made in India, or be willing to buy them. Those are the alternatives. Which is better for the people we're concerned with?
I think Kant has a point regarding the categorical imperative. If you (or anyone) acts a certain way, then you (or anyone) should feel comfortable with everyone else acting that same way too. Thus if you refuse to buy a product on principle, you should be OK with everyone else boycotting that product for the same reason too. Perhaps you are not arguing that everyone else should boycott it, but I think it's fair to ask that you consider the consequences if everyone else acted the same way.
Both those articles are about India, do you have any that support the same claim about Iran? I have been to Iran, and I have been to this same area that this article is about. Rug making is an ancient and respected trade that is held in high regard and is usually something done by older and more experienced people. The entire practice is about making high quality work with attention to detail and pride in their craftsmanship.
'Persian' rug is used as a generic term for hand knotted rugs of certain design - not just those from Iran. Oriental rug would be more accurate term (and is used). Most rugs of this type are made in Pakistan, India and Afghanistan.
I said you need a citation. It appears you don't know what that means, because this is not a citation.
Here [1] is a citation which quite explicitly says:
"A Persian rug is one that is made specifically in Iran by skilled artisans. [...] A rug made in Turkey, Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Pakistan, India, or Nepal is not considered to be a Persian rug."
So, please do your part to stop spreading false information.
I think the personal attacks are rather uncalled for. It is extremely common for people to call oriental rugs as 'persian' rugs. Even wiki disagrees with your very limited view of what is a Persian rug [1]. To quote:
A Persian carpet (Middle Persian: bōb, Persian: فرش farsh, meaning "to spread"; sometimes قالی qālī) is a heavy textile, made for a wide variety of utilitarian and symbolic purpose, produced in Iran and surrounding areas which once belonged to the Persian Empire, for home use, local sale, and export
This article is about Persian rugs that are produced specifically in Iran, not the looser definition of "Persian" rug you're using, so I think you should make that context clear in the OP.
I think most people buying a rug would be hard pressed to know where it originated. My op post was about my personal feelings about buying new rugs - as the article explains it won't be even an option to buy a true new Persian rug soon.
Growing up I knew a lot of families whose children worked in their restaurants. While — kids being kids — I'm sure that they would have told you that they were miserable, I don't think that they actually were.
Honestly, is a kid who must work any more miserable than an adult who must work? The entire idea of childhood is a very recent invention, after all.
>> is a kid who must work any more miserable than an adult who must work?
Yes, if that working deprives them of an education. Or if they work in conditions that an adult would not tolerate. Or if their pay is paid to someone else (ie parents renting out children). Or if their status as "children" or "wards" of their employers results in them having fewer rights than adults in the same employ.
I think you need to look at more historical precedent. And the fact that our culture considers 13 year-olds children and ancient cultures considered them adults.
Jossi came to the states in 1857 from Switzerland with his parents at the age of 12. The family settled first in upstate New York, but two years later young Jossi was running a small Limburger factory in the town of Richwood, in southwest Wisconsin.
A 14 year old managing a factory was probably somewhat remarkable. A 14 year old in the US working certainly wasn't.
The real one is the centerpiece of our entire house, and a treasure. It definitely has a quality and beauty that the machine-made ones don't possess. They're one-of-a-kind works of art. At some point it was repaired and there's a little difference in the dye colors where the patching was performed. Knowing it has some history really adds to the feeling of value. It's an antique you can walk and lay down on. If our home caught fire, I would probably grab my computer and that rug and leave the rest to burn.
It completely transformed the room we put it in and brought it grace and character. The machine-made rugs we put furniture on top of and are already starting to fall apart in places, even the nicer one we paid lots of money for before we got smart.
If you're patient and look around, you kind find them at fairly steep discounts, and now that the market is opening up, I expect the prices to drop even more. Our rug was appraised at something north of $15k, but we bought it for less than $2k. Quick checks on the internet show me similar rugs for around $6.5k. (here's one that looks superficially like ours http://esalerugs.com/red-palace-rugs-kashan-persian-rug-2219...)
When we decided to get a rug, we went through lots of research and shopping, finally decided on a Persian-style rug and hit rug markets and dealers all over our area. For us at least, the color schemes of the made-in-Iran rugs (over the often cheaper Pakistan, Turkish or Afghan handmade rugs) really was unmatched in hitting our taste.
Sorry if this sounds like a commercial, but these really are special objects. It's a shame that there's so many middle-men in-between the weavers and the buyers, I'd much rather have paid the weavers directly, but stupid global politics get in the way. I'm very excited for the slowly thawing relations with Iran, there's so many really wonderful cultural things I'm hoping come exploding out of that country.