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Then we can as well say that the whole general public of USA has failed. Because it is their responsibility (indirectly and ultimately) to see that the legal and enforcement machinery works as expected. Let's see how do they (the general public) behave now. Do they push heavily for severe punishment for these criminals (both individual leaders and companies) or not?

Or do they keep mum even if the leaders (like the recently resigned VW ceo) who not only got scot-free but also were rewarded millions if not billions of dollars ultimately for such crimes by the company and its shareholders?




Or we might as well say all humanity has failed, or God has failed, if we're going to ignore people's job descriptions, and their direct connection and responsibility for the design of all systems involved.


I am not saying we should ignore people's job descriptions; in fact, I was responding to one comment in the thread that was trying to put equal blame on the EPA too.

But I want to bring out an important aspect here: if the USA (mainly its people) fail to punish VW and its criminal leaders (along with the shareholders who backed, rewarded those leaders) in an exemplary manner, then some people will keep on blaming its capitalist economy based democracy for being too soft on "big and rich" while punishing severely only "poor people" even for smaller scale crimes.

The VW leaders should be put behind bars for something like 30 years and its big shareholders (the ones holding more 0.1% of its total shares, say) be punished monetarily by legally declaring their shares to be void. If US cannot do this because Germany wouldn't allow it to do so, then USA should ban the VW and all the companies associated with VW or its parent companies to do any business in US.

What has currently happened with VW in the name of punishment is pure farce. Its shares are still trading at non-zero positive value. And its leaders enjoying multi-million dollars in rewards for the criminal behavior. The justice has become farce in this case.

>>Or we might as well say all humanity has failed, or God has failed,

Yes, you can say so. But at least now we don't have a world-wide single state. As a god or gods (whether he, she, it or they (multiple gods)) are concerned, we don't know for sure whether the things called gods exist or not, so saying god failed doesn't get us much far.


if the USA ... fail to punish VW and its criminal leaders ... in an exemplary manner

By and large the USA has chosen to punish companies by fines. Very rarely do we put executives in jail.

There have been a few. E.g. Jeff Skilling is a poster boy for corporate malfeasance, and he wound up being sentenced to 14 years. But Enron was, overall, a cesspool rather than a legitimate company. In the greater scheme of things, VW's transgressions are minor compared to Enron's. So it's unlikely that the USA will try to put anyone in jail for them.

But VW has already set aside $18 billion. If we look at what happened to BP (another foreign company, and consequently easier to treat as a whipping boy than a US company), that $18 billion will prove wholly inadequate. VW will be lucky if it only costs them $18 billion for their USA fines, etc. And then everyone else in the world will then pile on.

Even if VW's total cost is "only" $18 billion, I think that's a big enough number that it will get the attention of CEOs and boards all around the world. It's unlikely that any other company will be so brazen in the near future.


There are those that are directly responsible (manufacturers, regulators), and those that are indirectly responsible (the people in a state, shareholders in a company, humanity, God, etc).

The people don't get to vote on specific issues, they get to vote on representation. The people representing them are directly responsible. Hold the people directly responsible to account, remove and replace if ineffective.


>>Hold the people directly responsible to account, remove and replace if ineffective.

And who is going to do "that"? and what if those who are responsible to do "that" don't do that? Then who is going to hold 'those' people who didn't do anything to hold those people responsible for the VW? I mean somewhere down the line, the general public must become active and show that it is not sleeping altogether, if that doesn't happen, well, society as a whole has to pay its price, and this price generally is very big, it can be so big that society may be crushed under its weight.

My point is let's see how USA deals with this VW crime and the other important criminal called Saudi Arabia for its role in 9/11. The government and enforcement agencies have already shown that they won't punish them much. So it remains to see if the general public holds them accountable or not.


So it remains to see if the general public holds them accountable or not.

That's not likely to happen. The American public is generally quite apathetic.

For example, one of the current leading candidates to become the next president of the USA had the following good fortune a while ago[1]:

- did not have any previous experience trading commodities futures

- deposited less than $1000 in cash into a futures trading account

- Made hundreds of trades. Each futures trade incurs a significant bid/ask spread, much greater than stock trades. And yet: Two-thirds of her trades showed a profit by the end of the day she made them and 80 percent were ultimately profitable. Many of her trades took place at or near the best prices of the day.

- cashed out for $100,000 nine months later

To me, that $100,000 was nothing more and nothing less than a bribe. And, although corruption is endemic in many parts of the world, one would hope that in the USA such obvious grift would unequivocally disqualify someone for the office of the President.

But if you took a poll, probably 99% of the electorate wouldn't even be aware of this little incident. And the majority probably wouldn't care.

So don't look for "the general public" to hold anyone accountable about anything. That's no longer how this country works. Not in 2016, anyway.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_cattle_futures_...


Good post indeed.

>>So don't look for "the general public" to hold anyone accountable about anything. That's no longer how this country works. Not in 2016, anyway.

It's sad. With all the "information age tools" at hand, we see that people are just choosing to remain ignorant. Reminds me Huxley's brave new world [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World




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