People are already aware. It's being covered in all forms of media, across all demographics. Awareness and understanding are wildly different concepts. People are aware, they just don't understand. The public can't be properly educated in the matter, because it's so nebulous and complex that it requires dedication to understand it. That goes for most of the issues we face as a society.
No, its acknowledgement that sometimes the few are left to defend the rights of many. This is how it works in a lot of areas. If Apple loses this round, our best hope is they push this debate to the SCOTUS and set the proper precedent there. Educating the masses isn't going to change much, as we have no say in the current system.
Think about this: Do you think the President, or any of the candidates, know much of anything about technology? Do you think they understand the intricacies of encryption? Would they even be able to name standard cypher suites? No, because that's not part of their education or job function. They rely on the few, their advisors, just like they do with most major issues.
I've seen your comments on this story, more power to you for wanting to start a grassroots education movement. I've also seen you muddy the waters with making comments about anti-encryption laws; this is an extremist fabrication on your part and not part of the actual current issues. As I've said elsewhere, directly in response to you, the outcome may be similar but the approach is completely different. If you manipulate outrage to reach your desired goal, you're just as bad as they are. You could've taken the time to read my other comments about this before declaring me defeatist, but instead you jumped to conclusions based on a small sampling; is this what your education is about?
Do you think the President, or any of the candidates, know much of anything about technology? Do you think they understand the intricacies of encryption? Would they even be able to name standard cypher suites? No, because that's not part of their education or job function. They rely on the few, their advisors, just like they do with most major issues.
How far down the advisor and lackey chain do you need to go before you get to someone who does understand the intricacies of encryption? Can name the standard cipher suites? Because I bet none of the advisers to the candidates or POTUS know those things either. This is not any of their jobs either.
Which is the larger concept I'm trying not to expound on too much.
Complete government reform and transparency are what is needed to correct most of the huge problems our world faces. Who has the ear of the king, can they be trusted, are they qualified, who has their ear, etc.
> If Apple loses this round, our best hope is they push this debate to the SCOTUS
[editing what I wrote, I missed something you said]
I believe our best hope is to start informing the public about encryption so that when more laws about encryption start appearing, then they are knowledgeable enough to let their representatives know how they feel about it. The idea is to inform enough so that the government is unable to spread FUD and an alarmist view that we will be safer when US phones have back doors. Because we won't. Other encryption tools exist that are not governable by the US.
[end edit]
> Think about this: Do you think the President, or any of the candidates, know much of anything about technology?
No. I've been thinking this for 8 years since patent trolls started becoming a nuisance. I'm happy to see we now have a couple of computer science graduates as representatives, including Ted Lieu who has been pretty vocal on this DOJ vs. Apple case.
> because that's not part of their education or job function
Hmm. They're supposed to have advisors or lobbyists for this. My argument is, in part, tech is missing a sufficient amount of those in the White House and DC. There can and should be more.
> I've seen your comments on this story, more power to you for wanting to start a grassroots education movement. I've also seen you muddy the waters with making comments about anti-encryption laws; this is an extremist fabrication on your part and not part of the actual current issues. As I've said elsewhere, directly in response to you, the outcome may be similar but the approach is completely different. If you manipulate outrage to reach your desired goal, you're just as bad as they are. You could've taken the time to read my other comments about this before declaring me defeatist, but instead you jumped to conclusions based on a small sampling; is this what your education is about?
Sorry hold up a moment here. Since when is providing facts muddying the waters? In most of my comments I'm citing sources directly. I also welcome debate. There literally are laws on the table at the state level in NY and CA that would require phone manufacturers to only sell phones that are decryptable when they are sold. Is it muddying the waters to call these anti-encryption bills? What would you call them?
I certainly wouldn't call what I wrote extremist.
I'm sorry if you're offended by what I wrote. I have no control over that. You are the one claiming the populace can't be educated. I have difficulty seeing how a person who clearly benefited from some form of education growing up can stand by this particular viewpoint. However, I do respect your opinion, and I apologize if I missed some of your remarks and mischaracterized your position. HN doesn't have any notification system for comments, so I probably miss some. I can't be expected to read every comment from one user before I respond to one of their comments can I? Please feel free to email me if you would like to discuss it further, or I can talk on the phone.
I'm not trying to manipulate anybody. I'm saying, let's put facts on the table and let people decide for themselves. If some people choose to ignore the facts, that's fine. If some technologists don't want to participate in sharing the facts, that's fine. But what's wrong with encouraging technologists to try? Again I welcome criticism of any of the words I write. If I'm being biased in some way I want to know about it, because if I appear biased here on HN then it will be more obvious to the layperson.
Shortish response here. You didn't offend me, man, and I don't stand in opposition to your ideals. What bothers me is that you're advocating public education whilst providing inaccurate narrative. You, yourself, have suggested education through analogies; that in and of itself demonstrates that the concept is too complex for proper education. You have to simplify it, which belies and confuses the depth of the topic. No, that's not anti-encryption law. Anti-encryption would mean there is no encryption, which will never happen; instead it tries to force backdoor encryption which could have a similar effect but is not the same thing. This is the fallacy of trying to simplify the concepts for the masses, and a byproduct of our modern media and information dissemination.
The narrative you've put forth is: "They're trying to remove encryption entirely so we aren't safe." when in reality it's "They're trying to backdoor our encryption, which makes us feel safe even though we aren't". The former conveys an obvious threat, while the latter conveys a much deeper and nebulous threat. I have to explain this concept to you, and we're both invested in the industry and the technologies involved; Do you think grandma is going to be aware of it, understand it, and take meaningful action? Considering the long and continuing overreach of TSA/DHS/FBI/NSA, the odds are slim. That sucks, but it's a reality. Your narrative wasn't an intentional manipulation, but an accident due to inaccuracies and misrepresentations; all too often the people on the other side do it intentionally.
I agree there can and should be more educated people responsible for legislation in the government, but that's part of a larger problem; The need for complete reform and transparency. The system in its entirety is broken and ineffectual and that's not likely to change any time soon. While we vote for a candidate, we elect a cabinet we usually don't even know about until the election is over. Think about that for a second. Now add in the fact that modern law enforcement will break rules first before being eventually regulated. The FBI and NSA have learned to follow the curve we've been using for years: Technology and innovation outpace regulation. This is just one tiny aspect of the overall complexity of this one single problem.
I would say it's not that technologists don't want to participate, it's that we have learned to direct our focus and energy to where it has the most impact; or realize that we don't have control to exert and choose to support those that do.
You, sir, keep being awesome and do what you feel is right. Just make sure you don't oversimplify massive problems for the sake of spreading awareness. That leads to people starting fights with misinformation; drugs are bad, muslims are terrorists, poor people are lazy, etc, etc.
Thank you for challenging my thoughts on the subject. I'll consider what you write here as we come up with messaging. I agree with characterizing the situation as pro/anti back door rather than pro/anti encryption.
Note that this is still an analogy. For better or for worse, analogies are used often in education. They're not the whole picture but they are a tool or gateway to other knowledge, if you will.
Anyway thanks again and I look forward to more critical feedback from you should we get a site off the ground. I can't say I'll necessarily agree but I will try to read and consider what you write.
People are already aware. It's being covered in all forms of media, across all demographics. Awareness and understanding are wildly different concepts. People are aware, they just don't understand. The public can't be properly educated in the matter, because it's so nebulous and complex that it requires dedication to understand it. That goes for most of the issues we face as a society.