Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

Ugh, it sounds nice but it's just one side of the story. ATM limits are generally not in place because you can't access your money, but to protect the consumer from being forced at gunpoint to withdraw their entire balance to a thief. Through my work I've got eyes on a lot of people's bank accounts and I've seen plenty with balances of tens of thousands of dollars on their checking account. The ability to withdraw it with no oversight or protection with your card means walking around with your card means you're walking around with your entire bank balance in your wallet, ready to be stolen by anyone who forces you to withdraw, or simply reads your code and steals your card or skims your card. Same for companies rejecting bills, sounds ridiculous in a rich low-crime country, but you don't live in the 'real world' that the median citizen of the world does, you live in a tiny little paradise in comparison. In most other places, retailers don't want to hold that kind of cash in stores, it's dangerous to them.

The gold is great, although it makes little sense for every bank in the world to hold gold. One or two dealers per city is fine, and guess what, they exist already and they don't have to be a bank. I really do like it, though, would definitely like it but I don't think it makes much business sense. Beyond that, it's reasonably easy to simply get exposure to the gold price as investors. The only reason to buy physical gold then is either because you're pretty paranoid about the 'system' collapsing, which is fine although not my cup of tea. The other is for tax avoidance. Let's just say I don't think it's a coincidence this service is offered in Switzerland, and that this may tell you something about the real use case of this service. It may work in a rich country with a finance industry that brings in big bucks, but Swiss policies simply don't work at scale in other countries, and have indeed cost other countries a lot of money who are in a way subsidising Switzerland. (I know because I've worked in that very industry and I've seen how it works. Although I must note, it's certainly not the only country to do this, and it's all changing for the better pretty quickly).

Anyway thanks for sharing your personal experience, I'm sure you know the above and aren't claiming Switzerland is some kind of model for the rest of the world, but that's what it appears to suggest.




What we want from "the system" is protection from seizure. Swiss banks cannot guarantee this protection anymore, because if I am, say, a German citizen they will now happily report my bank accounts to German tax authorities due to recent agreements, and they will seize my money, even if they are mistaken, before court decision, with no presumption of innocence. (Ironically, they are explicitly disallowed by law to do it for Swiss tax authorities).

If I have physical gold, it's anonymous, can be stored securely and is not transparent. Still can be seized, but this is much harder and requires actual physical force.


I get what you mean, I've been on the receiving end of a tax bill that was 10x my actual bill. Indeed I had to pay first, then object, then get my money (without interest) back. It sucks, particularly as I really couldn't miss that money at the time, I actually paid them with debt and paid back my debt once they fixed it.

But perhaps you may already see why gold doesn't change that equation much. After all, take my experience as an example, I didn't have money to pay them, nor did I have credit on my bank balance (I didn't borrow through there). So there was no way for them to actually seize my money from my bank. A bit like having gold and withholding it, they can't seize anything from me, is this a solution?

No. After all, I was completely fucked if I didn't pay. Interest incurs on taxes due (quite a steep rate at that), plus penalties accrue on non-payment (super steep). In addition, at some point you get issues with the justice system. If then it appears you were withholding some gold, you're completely fucked. Now you're paying extra penalties for tax avoidance, which may be criminal depending on the magnitude. You say it requires physical force as if that's some kind of benefit, no way, you're life is screwed when it comes to that. You'll be heavily fined, may get jail time and may have a criminal record, as well as extra scrutiny on your taxes for the rest of your life.

If the government uses force on you by seizing your assets, the solution is not to hide those assets, e.g. in anonymous gold. You can't escape government force, and you're still liable for what you owe. They'll seize other assets you may have, like your home or car, or they lock you up. A system that lets you hide your wealth is not a solution, instead of them seizing your wealth they screw your life in a worse way and accrue penalties that total more than the amount due in the first place. At the end of the road you still owe what they wanted to seize.

The solution is different political policy, more legal protection for citizens to resist undue seizure, fewer mistakes with taxes etc. That, by the way, could happen when all transactions are digital, transparent, and more easily accounted for and reviewed. Even the most modern tax authorities tend to run most calculations on historical data, then give you a chance to correct them once a year. Obviously this is a flawed system: historical data is not accurate (e.g. you lose your job, they send a tax bill on the basis of your old income, you have no money, no taxes due, you must pay a huge bill, then fight it and get the money back. It sucks). And ordinary people have trouble with proper bookkeeping and do not give an accurate account of their finances once a year, it's really hard. In a world where finances are completely digital, this whole story becomes much easier and more accurate. It's far from perfect, but it's an improvement. Combined with citizen protections, a digital banking system can be beneficial.

Privacy and political oppression are enemies of financial transparency and digital systems, there are great arguments to make there against digitisation of banking. But asset seizing that you mentioned, I don't think is one of them, hiding wealth does nothing to solve the problem. That doesn't mean I approve of automatic seizing, by the way, no way. But the solution isn't hiding, it's different procedures, e.g. building in recourse prior to payment being required let alone assets being seized.


In theory, I agree with you. We all need better laws and better governments, and less mistakes.

In practice, however, being faced with this 10x incorrectly calculated tax bill (and I've been there, too), if your money is seized before you can object, you are screwed. My business would have been totally busted in a moment if the money were taken automatically back then. And when this kind of thing happens, your first thought is not "we need a better legal system and transparency!". Your first thought is "where I'll get the money to feed my family tomorrow and pay salaries at the end of the month?"

And even when everything is transparent and all taxes are just and always calculated correctly (we can dream, right?), there's always a question of malice. Politicians are not always neutral unconcerned actors, to say the least.


"Tax avoidance" is not that simple. Tax laws are complex. Often businesses and governments have different opinions on what should be paid, so all tax bills can be opposed and challenged.

I own a small one-person software consulting company in Switzerland, working with international clientele and paying myself a salary. I _still_ have discussions with authorities on what should be paid and why, because its in their interest to claim the most, and in my interest to pay the least (and there are no less than 20 different incredibly complicated laws regulating my business). Often I prove that I am right, and tax claims are reduced, sometimes substantially. If I have paid automatically everything that is claimed by authorities, my business wouldn't survive a single year. For larger companies dealing internationally, it is way more complicated. 50 years ago, to own a "transnational corporation", you had to be a billionaire and run a quite complicated business machinery, and laws were written according to that. Now, a one-man software company can be transnational, but some laws were not updated to reflect it.

Thus, allowing the government to peek into and seize my bank accounts at its caprice would be the disaster for me and my business.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: