Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
NSA data will soon routinely be used for domestic policing (washingtonpost.com)
492 points by Jarred on March 10, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 168 comments



http://fee.org/articles/three-felonies-a-day-how-the-feds-ta...

> Perhaps the most chilling quote of the Soviet era came from Lavrentiy Beria, Stalin’s head of the secret police, who bragged, “Show me the man, and I will find you the crime.” Surely, that never could be the case in America; we’re committed to the rule of law and have the fairest justice system in the world.

> This should make everyone fearful. Silverglate declares that federal prosecutors don’t care about guilt or innocence. Instead, many subscribe to a “win at all costs” mentality, and there is little to stop them.

> The very expansiveness of federal law turns nearly everyone into lawbreakers. Like the poor Soviet citizen who, on average, broke about three laws a day, a typical American will unwittingly break federal law several times daily. Many go to prison for things that historically never have been seen as criminal.

http://mic.com/articles/86797/8-ways-we-regularly-commit-fel...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11/04/david-barton-expl...

> John Baker, a retired Louisiana State University law professor, made a similar comment to the Wall Street Journal: “There is no one in the United States over the age of 18 who cannot be indicted for some federal crime. … That is not an exaggeration.”

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/statistics

Do you even know the 134 laws passed by the current Congress are? I know I don't and you just have to fall afoul of 1.


I'm currently watching The Wire (Season 2). One thing I'm learning is that the common citizen really does not matter at all - the three different branches of the government keep each other in check by alternatively trying to fuck each other over/brownnose each other as much as they can.

That's the genius of checks and balances. As long as no one branch (legislative, judicial, executive) gets the upper hand, we can ensure that the power-hungry people who rise up through the ranks will hold each other accountable, if only for selfish and corrupt reasons.

I'm not sure what to consider corporations though. They seem to have piled up enough legal protection to be considered a fourth, private wing of government. Some of their incentives align (no taxes, bailouts, less regulation) but many more do not. Google and Apple control enough cash and information that they are de facto more powerful than 95% of world governments, and they play a major role in ours. Eric Schmidt taking on a role at the Pentagon is one recent example [1].

As Dostoevsky put it, viper will eat viper. We are all a little Karamazovian - of the black root. It's what keeps the world balanced.

[1] http://www.wired.com/2016/03/ex-google-ceo-eric-schmidt-head...


Corporations are part of the checks and balances as well. Most of the opposition to SOPA/PIPA came from the tech industry, they've united to fight the FBI decryption challenge, and they started encrypting everything in response to the NSA revelations. On the flip side, the FTC is continually butting heads with Google over what are acceptable advertising statutes, human rights groups love to expose Apple's use of sweatshops, and European governments are big advocates of privacy.

The genius of democratic capitalism is that it's managed to harness the natural desire of sociopaths to fuck each other over to ensure that life doesn't get too miserable for ordinary people. The unfortunate part is that you pretty much have to become a sociopath to enter the class that gets to decide who gets fucked. But I'd much rather have this than every other social system, where the sociopaths fuck over the common people unchecked.


> ... European governments are big advocates of privacy.

Maybe, but not where "national security" matters.

Edit: Added quotes for clarity.


Very few countries have reasons to fear for their 'national security', that's mostly just a fig leaf for activities that would otherwise not stand a chance of being implemented.

Countries that have legitimate national security issues (Syria, North Korea, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Iraq, Algeria and so on) are not the ones using that term the most frequent.


Agreed.


What about the TPP, which is backed by many corporations?


Corporations aren't _good_, they just have goals that doesn't entirely intersect with those of the government.


But the intelligence community is an invisible meta branch. Corporations have always been a part of the MIC, as their integral connections to the military, our largest consumer of our resources, is a host-parasite relationship and it is this relationship which has co-opted the idea of freedom in this country.

Now we have a spiral of oligarchs who leach off the whole system.


> As Dostoevsky put it, viper will eat viper. We are all a little Karamazovian - of the black root. It's what keeps the world balanced.

This is why I'm not too sad anymore when I hear all this awful news. We are all monsters. Give the average person money and power, and they will behave just the same.


So firstly, I don't think that's actually a documentary.

Secondly, are you really saying "living in a police state is fine, you just have to make sure you never become more of a threat to someone in power than their peers in government"?


They don't even need you to fall afoul of a crime. They can just make something up and once they are in court and the jury is known, they can pull the files of the jury and figure out how to manipulate the case into a guilty verdict. Having access to every moment of a person life can tell you quite a lot of how to manipulate someone.


They don't even need to convince a jury. 97% of federal cases and 94% of local ones end with a plea bargain. To see why, consider facing a million dollar legal bill (average), with a likely 7 year jail sentence if you lose, and you're offered 6 months in jail if you confess. You know you didn't do it, but can you afford to fight it and the possibility of the jury getting it wrong?

Given this math, I guarantee you that a lot of innocent people plead guilty because as wrong as it is they simply can't afford to fight for justice.


One had a choice of fighting a ticket and potentially be hit with a $2000+ fine or pay a fine of $140+$43 court expenses. The prosecutor explained that since it is a city ordinance, there is nothing to go on one's criminal record. One could say they not guilty but is it worth it?

I don't think the individual prosecutor was evil. They were doing their best to process everyone as quickly as possible. they were courteous and polite. it seemed they offered minimal fines (at least they said the fines were minimal) and it costs more just to retain a lawyer.

who knows? maybe the police officers have a quota to meet. I can't blame them for following orders and looking for the silliest infractions towards the end of the month.

it just seems that we've optimized the process to a point where I don't really care because I get caught up in it so rarely and get off so easily and the people who get caught up more (have a prior history or can't afford $183 fine) probably don't have much of a voice. but what can I do?


>I can't blame them for following orders

Stew on that for a bit. If I get a job, where someone lays me to rob you, would you blame me for following orders?


The individual police officer on the street has little influence on how the system works. If we need meaningful change, it can't come from putting our police officers between a rock and a hard place.

Now, I say this as someone very vocal about the blue code of silence. However, there are no easy answers. Any unconcerted attempt to rid our law enforcement agencies of the blue code will result in it getting stronger and create more of this "us vs them" mentality.

We don't need more of that.

Now to answer your question, yes if someone robbed me or killed me I'd want them to be held accountable. However, I think the person giving the order is more responsible than the person pulling the trigger. Is that not so?


> who knows? maybe the police officers have a quota to meet. I can't blame them for following orders and looking for the silliest infractions towards the end of the month.

Hmm. Shouldn't you ? Even more so as an American citizen (I suppose you are) ?


>> One had a choice of fighting a ticket and potentially be hit with a $2000+ fine or pay a fine of $140+$43 court expenses.

The root of the problem is that a choice is even offered. If you got the ticket, why is a court willing to waive the fine for any reason? It's easier for the court, it's easier for the offender, lazy all around. But the real problem may be that some ticket carries a $2000 fine. Imagine if the ticket could not be waived. More people would fight it because it's worth the effort. Eventually enough people might get angry at the high fine and move to get it changed. Or put another way, why is there this infraction with such a high fine in the first place? It doesn't seem that important since they're willing to make a huge compromise.


You are absolutely right. There are many city laws and ordinances that I doubt would stand a constitutional review.

I don't think police officers today are any lazier it more corrupt than police officers in the good old days. We are a bit too harsh on them I suppose. It is just that with an easier access to communication, we can all tell about our particular nuisances which paints a bigger picture together.

If you yell back at someone who yelled at you, should you get a $200 ticket while the other person who started it gets away? Hey, maybe have a plain cloth police officer yell at random people and see who bites and issue them a $200 ticket when they do?


While I agree with the general premise, it appears Harvey Silverglate is a fraud. This came up on HN a while ago and I looked up a few of the cases mentioned. A brief search revealed that these people were all actual criminals and he had grossly misrepresented the cases.

The one I remember had to do with shipping undersized lobster tails. He made it out that a bunch of average restaurant owners were sent to jail for years b/c they broke a foreign export law which was somehow enforceable in America due to a law he had a problem with.

What actually happened was these people had been conspiring to to break environmental law for decade by packaging lobster tails in such a way that inspectors found it difficult to inspect them and made mistakes. They had a whole system for routing their stuff to specific ports that had inspecting facilities that were easy to manipulate. They continued doing this for a year after they were informed they were under a federal investigation, right up until they were all arrested.

They made millions of dollars by poaching undersized lobsters and all of the rules they broke were not vague and specifically made their packaging actions illegal, in order to prevent people from doing exactly what they did.

So I wouldn't put too much faith in this guy.


Atty. Silverglate is very much not a fraud.

He's the author of "The Shadow University" which was one of the most disruptive blows that's been struck against the large-endowment administrations in the past few decades.

I actually happen to know one of the subjects of Mr. Silverglate's case studies, Nicholas Hermandorffer, who later wrote his thesis on the topic. In my view, his experience was represented accurately and fully, and Mr. Hermandorffer's accounts were closely aligned with phone records, texts, emails, etc., as well as physical evidence.

He's also head of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), which ranks universities on their free speech rights, as well as informs students that they sacrifice Constitutional protection to a certain extent living in University housing, as well as provides information on the rights one does retain and how to invoke them.

You seem like somebody with an axe to grind. I wouldn't put too much faith in this guy.


I think things should work OK if either the laws are reasonable so normal people don't accidentally break them or if we don't police them thoroughly. If neither condition is met, then we have some horror dystopia where everybody lives in fear of unexpected arrest.

The laws are already too tough, so we depend on poor quality police work to keep ourselves safe. If the police use NSA data to actively discover crimes, then we would fail both conditions and be in trouble.

This suggests that an alternative solution would be to fix the unreasonable laws rather than keep the police crippled.


I've always thought that the only reason the general public tolerates a lot of the laws in place is that said laws are rarely or never enforced.

Think about speeding. Most people wouldn't accept having a government-monitored GPS in their car, and one common objection is "but then if I accidentally slip a couple of km/h over the limit I'll get instantly busted". Well yeah, and if you thought that universally enforcing the speed limit was fair then you'd be OK with this. It's not fair, and often the speed limit is far below what you could safely do in a modern car under good conditions. Breaking the speed limit often poses no threat to anyone.

Just one example of an unjust, but relatively unenforced, law.


I'm not a fan of U.S. law as it currently stands, but not enforcing laws as a matter of course (i.e. not an act of protest) pretty much demolishes rule of law. That sort of activity goes hand in hand with corruption and failed states.


Selective enforcement is a thing. Lying to the FBI in the course of an investigation is a crime, and because the lie can be about something the FBI already knows, it's frequently used as a proxy for actual crime.

What happened to retired General David Petraeus was a pretty good example of "justice for your friends". Lying to FBI agents, actually giving away classified documents, and he pled to one misdemeanor and got two years probation[1].

It's not like they didn't have evidence of the False Statements charge.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/petra...



The great Roman jurist Cicero said: "summum ius, summa iniuria." (Greatest law, greatest injustice.)

Enforcing laws to the letter demolishes the rule of law as well.


Maybe just leave the United States? Canada is a lot like a colder America without the crazy surveillance state. You can help advocate for rescuing your country from abroad.


Have you heard of Bill C-51? We're just a lot quieter about the surveillance. Also Canada is pretty extradition-happy with its big bro down south.


Yeah, C-51 is almost completely reasonable. What part about it don't you like other than the lack of parliamentary oversight?


Well, the lack of oversight is a big one. But I remain concerned about the overly broad usages/references to terrorism, "promoting" terrorism, and phrases referring to actions that undermine "the economic and financial stability of Canada".

If an Indigenous tribe protests a pipeline being built on their ancestral land, are they undermining the economic stability of Canada?

I don't like leaving the distinction between what constitutes activism and terrorism up to interpretation by the frontline LEO's and CSIS agents collecting and acting on the data.


A lot of scary stuff in those 134 laws:

S. 994: A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 1 Walter Hammond Place in Waldwick, New Jersey, as the “Staff Sergeant Joseph D’Augustine Post Office Building”

S. 599: Improving Access to Emergency Psychiatric Care Act

H.R. 33: Protecting Volunteer Firefighters and Emergency Responders Act

H.R. 431: To award a Congressional Gold Medal to the Foot Soldiers who participated in Bloody Sunday, Turnaround Tuesday, or the final Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights March in March of 1965, which served as a catalyst for the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

I think I know what your point is, that we might need to know what elected officials are doing, but I think this was a little more FUD than was necessary. Perhaps we need to think if these issues need to be a law a the national level.


Keep in mind that the title of the law often does not describe its true scope.


John Baker's quote makes more sense if you realize there is no judge or trial or defense in a grand jury indictment. A prosecutor just makes their case and presents their best evidence. One hopes the majority of the indictments he refers to would be foolish to actually prosecute.


> One hopes the majority of the indictments he refers to would be foolish to actually prosecute.

https://www.bja.gov/Publications/PleaBargainingResearchSumma...

> According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (2005), in 2003 there were 75,573 cases disposed of in federal district court by trial or plea. Of these, about 95 percent were disposed of by a guilty plea (Pastore and Maguire, 2003). While there are no exact estimates of the proportion of cases that are resolved through plea bargaining, scholars estimate that about 90 to 95 percent of both federal and state court cases are resolved through this process (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2005; Flanagan and Maguire, 1990).

A 95% plea rate makes indictment almost always a conviction [effectively]. If they don't plea, the prosecutor can drop the case.

The only people who can defend this are the upper middle class [6 figure incomes] and the wealthy.

http://www.reulandlaw.com/about/fee/

For an example of rates, its 35-75k for a federal case.


Another explanation for these numbers is that prosecutors are also resource-bound and risk-averse and prefer to go after cases they are almost certain to win.

There are, of course, exceptions of all kinds, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weev.


As against Beria, Cardinal Richelieue (1585-1642) needed a little more - "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him".


In related news, I heard on NPR today people are complaining that the TSA no-fly list didn't catch a man who was a wanted shooting suspect.

The insinuation is the no-fly list should be expanded to catch domestic criminals. You know, the no-fly list that you can't be removed from and don't have to have committed a crime to get yourself listed on. The no-fly list that is unconstitutional, yeah that one.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/idaho-shooting-suspect-kyle-odom-fl...


That response is deeply fucked.

It also gives further evidence to the fact that most people simply want to live a good life, and are happy to give power to any authority that can promise them that. The thinking here is: the government created the no fly list to catch bad guys, these are bad guys, why aren't they on the list?


My fear with all this is that we all think Snowden was great because it put a spotlight on this stuff. But the reality is Joe Average is perfectly ambivalent and powers in the government can use that to push this far beyond secret programs ostensibly created to protect us from terrorists.


I tell people I work for Booz | Allen | Hamilton, and the vast vast majority outside the beltway don't recognize the name at all.


Using the no fly list for this is moronic...

However connecting a civilian police wanted fugitives registry / arrest warrant list to the airline booking system actually sounds like a good idea... The kind of good idea that's so obvious I thought it was already done decades ago.


Of course, since this is now available to local & federal cops & prosecutors, same as any other law enforcement database, any exculpatory information will naturally be discoverable by defense attorneys.

Right?

Right?


I'm suddenly reminded of two stories. One was my Civics teacher who grew up in a dry country. Every four years they got a new sheriff. Because hey after you've earned a quarter of million in bribes (circa 1965) why not retire. And another who mentioned when she was a teenager the feds busting two local sheriffs deputies for trafficking cocaine.

You really want a corrupt sheriff or drug dealing cops to have access to all the stuff the NSA does?

Seriously? Scares the crap out of me.



Sounds a lot like the argument the government makes about encryption. "Do you really want terrorists and pedophiles to be able to hide from law enforcement? What about a ticking timebomb scenario?"


Gag of the week.


> It’ll be Black, Brown, poor, immigrant, Muslim, and dissident Americans: the same people who are always targeted by law enforcement for extra “special” attention.

.. Another Quote.

> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.

> Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

> Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew

> Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

I guess i'm on that list now.


You when you get paid to find terrorist, and your job depends on you finding terrorists, well then, everybody starts to look like a terrorist.


I've considered before that overzealous police forces are in certain respects analogues of auto-immune diseases. Host rejecting/attacking itself.


Yes! I've thought the exact same thing, thought I was the only one.


I'm trying to remember where I saw the idea developed. Possibly by Andreas Schou at Google+.

Basically: if you've got some discriminating test with Type 1 and Type 2 error (false positive, false negative, don't ask me which is which), then as the actual rate of incidence falls, no matter how sensitive your test, at some point it's mostly making false positive rather than true positive selections.

Cue a system which rewards based on, say, arrests, rather than on correct convictions, and doesn't penalise on false arrests or wrongful convictions.

You're going to see a lot of false/wrongful arrests and convictions.

Makes me think if part of what happens within immune systems isn't similar.

Bruce Schneier probably covers similar ground, now that I think of it.


"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." - Manslow


I request the link to be changed to the original source; this article is an opinion piece. The original is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/26/us/politics/obama-administ...


I don't know, the WaPo article adds some useful context, like links to stories about previous, unofficial information sharing.

Of course, the usefulness hinges on whether you trust that WaPo is being impartial. (I have no opinion on that, since I don't follow US politics that closely.)


Yeah, it's not like the NYTimes is impartial either. Read their election coverage for example. I've been thinking about this recently because I was considering adding some more news sources to my feeds, but I'm fairly content because at this point I understand and notice the biases in the sources I do read, and I'm worried it would take a long time to build up a similar understanding of a new source.


What's wrong with the their election coverage (serious question)?


Severely biased in favor of Hillary. Makes sense – their main demographic is bankers, got to appease the customer.

When he was in the race, they were hugely in favor of Jeb Bush, too. For instance, this [1] was on the front page of the website for at least a day.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/26/us/politics/hear-the-one-a...


Not OP, but as a paper & digital subscriber of the Washington Post (which I subscribed to for the Volokh Conspiracy, when they migrated), I have decided not to renew my subscription as I find the editorial board too opinionated.

I have zero problems with op-ed pieces being opinionated, but when those opinions seep into the actual news, I have a hard time calling it journalism, and an even harder time giving them my money.

That said, I can think of literally zero unbiased sources, especially as Circa's shut down. It doesn't seem to be a feature that many people are willing to pay for.


Radley Balko is one of the great journalists of our time and a true hacker in spirit. He belongs on HackerNews far more than the NYT.


Radley Balko's credentials and "true hacker" spirit are irrelevant. The original source should always take precedence, especially over the bias of an opinion piece describing it.


I reject the idea that the "original source" is in this case or can ever be free from bias.

The "original source" is, according to the NYTimes piece, "officials familiar with the deliberations." The NYTimes piece, as well as this one, and any other piece written about it, will be written by a human being with a bias.

The HN guideline, "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter," doesn't, as I understand it, refer to newspapers making reference to other newspapers in their analysis of a story.

It refers to, for example, a blog that posts a video with no further comment. In that case, just link to the video.


The bias in the posted source is far more blatant (it even begins with "surprise!"). You can argue that any source is biased, and that may be true, but I don't think you can argue that the bias is equal in all cases, or that the New York Times article is no more or less objectively written than the Washington Post. Preferring the latter over the former because of the political views of its author colors the thread before it even begins.

I agree with Radley Balko's point of view here, but I prefer the posted source not be one that is begging its own premise and telling me what to think. That's what the comment thread itself is for.


Transparent. Radley's piece is more transparent. The NYTimes, a warmongering, deceitful, fallen-from-grace publication, is more opaque. But they are equally biased.

And in any case, the HN guidelines make no distinction between "biased" and "objective" sources. In this case, neither is the "original source," so both are equally valid. Thus, it's sensible to chose the less reckless one, and that is clearly Radley.


As someone who doesn't live in the US, I am awestruck by how big of a deal this seems to be for people.

Are you really trying to tell me that surveillance of ~the rest of the world~ is somehow less bad?


Yes. We have Constitutional rights that protect us from such surveillance. Foreigners have no such protections from the U.S. government. This has essentially "lifted the veil" and made it abundantly clear that our government will no longer respect the rights of it's citizen's, even in a formal official capacity.

This is no surprise to me, as such abuses tend to go hand in hand, but it definitely takes things to a new level.


> We have Constitutional rights that protect us from such surveillance. Foreigners have no such protections from the U.S. government.

This is an example of a lie that has repeated often enough to have become the truth. The Bill of Rights limits what the government can and can't do, period.


Yes! To a first approximation, my government doesn't have the power to put you in jail for, say, hacking into a local server in your hometown. (Yours doesn't have that power over me, either.)

So (again to a first approximation) the files that my government collects on you are only available to be used in cases with some sort of international significance. (And the same with the files that your government collects on me.) I see a vast difference between that situation and the situation where a local cop can casually dig through these vast databases to find out if I've ever been associated with anything at all potentially illegal.


There might be some deceased cell phone owners in Yemen that might disagree.

But in general, yes, spying on foreign nations have always been illegal, and always considered to be inevitable.

On the other hand, with the information sharing across borders (NSA spies on UK citizens, MI6 spies on US citizens) -- this line has already been blurred (Or for a less "redundant" example than the UK, Swedish and Norwegian intelligence services have had a rather incestuous, illegal secret relationship for a long time).

All that aside: a state where the electorate fear the elected, rather than the other way around (or; where the elected takes steps to act on their fear of the electorate) is no longer a democracy.


I'm reminded of this 2015 story from The Intercept, about how all this started (which apparently haven't been submitted to hn before):

"GCHQ AND ME – My Life Unmasking British Eavesdroppers" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11265969


I'm sorry, but in a time where the US is killing people on the other side of the world using unmanned bomber drones based on just this international spying, I have a hard time believing that any of this should be "fair game".


Yes!

So for those who value privacy, it's important to route traffic among jurisdictions that don't readily collaborate.


Absolutely. Countries spy on each other. Do you think your country doesn't have spies in the US? I assure you it does. As it should.

But a government that spies on its own citizens is one step from tyranny.


We can and should surveil the heck out of the rest of the world -- to be used for intelligence purposes only.

The problem is when this intelligence information gets used for domestic criminal cases -- no matter which country is involved. So if the Saudis want to know every detail about my life, who cares? They never release the data, I'm not a threat to them, and life goes on. But if the Saudis give that information to U.S. authorities, and then the U.S. authorities arrest me for a laundry list of crimes? I've effectively had my privacy and private papers violated without any kind of due process.

You can't start building "escape hatches" into the agreement you have with your government. It breaks the entire system. Used to be that grownups realized this, but lately the well-meaning idiots seem to be in charge.


Rumour has it that the NSA already has threat predictor algorithms and processes, how long until the NSA provides the FBI this and you get arrested for pre-crimes or thought-crimes? How do you answer the charge that you were thinking about doing something bad?


Laws are so complex that chances are you are breaking some law at some point in your life. If you do anything "interesting" like activism, entrepreneurship, alternative religious practices, DIY maker stuff, etc., you are probably doing something "of interest" according to some statute somewhere.

Also don't rule out harassment. Would you hire someone who is under investigation? How would you like a tax audit? Or maybe you'll get pulled over 10X more than the average person because when cops run your plates you are flagged? What about no-fly lists? Detainment at the border when re-entering the country? Exclusion from benefits or consideration for government jobs/contracts? There are many things that can be done to make your life unpleasant or wreck your career that aren't illegal and don't involve actually charging you with a crime. In many cases there may be no recourse civil or criminal. Look into the adventure of getting yourself off a no-fly list for a good example of non-criminal punishment.


Reminds me of Mccarthyism. Most people targeted were never arrested, never charged, but they still made their lives a living hell just through systematic harassment and intimitation.


What we're headed toward is ultra-fine-grained algorithmic McCarthyism.

In the future it will be possible to establish, with the aid of big data and machine learning, profiles of "normal" (a.k.a. desired) human behavior and to engage in fine-grained surveillance, harassment, or "nudging" of individuals who deviate from desired behavior.

Over time this creates a self-reinforcing feedback loop: felons can't vote, and "soft persecution" could negatively impact peoples' careers causing more and more wealth to systematically accrete into the hands of desirable individuals. Put these two things together and combine them with fine-grained propaganda based on big data and cognitive modeling and you have a recipe for... well... I can't help but see this as the formula of a new dark age of totalistic orthodoxy and immovable dogmas.

The last dark age was built on self-enforcement of social norms as dictated by religious orthodoxy. This one might be built on big data and fine grained surveillance and control of the population by a technocratic orthodoxy. Instead of the pope and the Vatican we have the corporate-state complex and the NSA (and private corporations like Google). Collectively the administrators of this system are the technocratic analogs of the Holy See in the middle ages.

The next dark age will look like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cQgQIMlwWw


"Thinking" in this case is mostly "saying" stuff online, even in "private" to someone. They already arrest people for saying stuff like "I'll kill X" on a public digital place like Twitter or Facebook. The next step is to arrest you when you say that in private - even if you have no intention of ever doing that.

Brace yourselves, the police state is coming (civil law enforcement agencies having access to mass surveillance data and then acting on it whenever they like is pretty much the definition of a police state).


> Rumour has it that the NSA already has threat predictor algorithms and processes

Local police departments already have this and use it to target individuals. I remember reading that the Chicago PD shows up at people's houses and tells them, 'we watching you'.


Since when is thinking about something a crime??? It is the act that is important.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

47,000 people are on it. Most of them have not committed any crime... Probably. We don't actually know, because if you're on it, the government won't tell you why - or even that you're on it.


Would buying a plane ticket online let you know that you are on it? If so then the airline companies should be able to at least provide a service for informing you that you are on the list, if you ask about it.


It seems more likely that they let you buy a ticket but not board the plane, but that's a guess. Can anyone confirm?


usually, in the states, your ticket will have special letters on it, signifying your relative flight risk. There's countless stories of Laura Poitras and others discussing this. the reader is invited to !yt TSA Poitras.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)#United...

A criminal conspiracy is more than thinking about a crime, but a lot less than actually committing the act.


The whole war on terror and this bulk collection is predicated on stopping crimes before they happen. It's a giant catch 22.

Would stopping mass shootings and not-called-terorrism-but-domestic-terror be part of the use cases here? Like if you were to ignore some other laws and track gun ownership and purchases, maybe cross reference it with the use/prescription of certain medications and then cross reference that with anti-social posts on the internet or associations with certain call-themselve-patriots-but-really-hate-the-government type groups you might stop some mass shootings. Maybe save some actual lives.

It's a terrible rabbit hole to go down, we need to stop it all ASAP.


The best thing about this whole setup is that it's unfalsifiable. Something bad happen? We need to work harder (read: accept more invasion of our privacy) to prevent such atrocities in future. Nothing bad happens? It's working, let's do it even more!


I don't think it's about thinking, it's about the supposed probability that you will commit a crime in the future. And as for that I can imagine very well that laws can change, provided the technology is sold to politicians and to the public in the right way.

E.g. "we now have technology that can prevent rapes of children before they even happen. So many children today live in the direct neighborhood of a potential rapist - and no-one could do anything because nobody knew. But now we can spot and remove the potential rapists and give the children back the pieceful and carefree life that they deserve.

Unfortunately, as of now, making use of the technology would be in violation of certain laws - laws that made a lot of sense in the last century. But given the changes in society and the urgency of the matter, we feel a reformulation would be more than justified..."


not so. intent is part of culpability in most violent crimes. hate crimes legislation takes it a step further. (It's beyond me how the 'thought' element of a hate crime isn't protected political speech).


> It's beyond me how the 'thought' element of a hate crime isn't protected political speech

The courts of the US have literally always that freedom of speech is not unlimited.


In Reed v Town of Gilbert we ruled that statutory limitations on free speech must pass scrict scrutiny.

You can argue for a compelling state interest in increasing the term of punishment for a violent offender based on his opinions about race. But (1) it's hard to argue the state interest in longer prison terms and (2) it's really hard to prove hate, so there's an easy due process appeal here.


Felony to talk about harming the president, even in jest.


Just going to point out... Many dead presidents are still spinning in their graves from the day that became a crimp. That's not how the freedoms they strived to uphold are supposed to work.


Even for Trump?


Well if you "think" all lives matter at Facebook...

In our current hyper sensitive culture there's a lot of expectations that people think a certain way.


With low level bureaucrats getting access to this data, isn't it inevitable that we'll start seeing massive security breaches on a routine basis?

I suppose we'll just have to start assuming that anything said or written or looked up online will eventually be accessible to anyone who's interested.


Yes - aside from the inevitable LOVINT abuses, it seems likely that this will end up compromising even more sources and methods.


We're also about to witness an explosion of blackmailing by local law enforcement against the citizens they're supposed to be protecting. It'll make the police property confiscation / theft racket look tiny by comparison.


Sorry in advance if this is somehow not a "substantive" comment, but it really needs to be said very clearly:

This country is so f#cked now.

What are the remaining options?

1. Those who accept the new reality will be forced to behave like sheep.

2. Those who speak up will be silenced even before they will have organized some kind of serious movement (see: OWS + parallel construction).

3. Leave.


I think you should expand point 3. At the very least, consider "where" you'd leave to. I came to the conclusion that pretty much everywhere on the globe, you'll find the same problem you're trying to escape.


Is anyone surprised?

Don't use electronic messaging to tell people you're holding cash, bring a cheque at least. The cops are going to find out and your cash is going to be confiscated.


The better evil is still fucking evil. Don't ever forget that.


I'm printing that out tomorrow, and posting it on my wall. thank you.


> and your cash is going to be confiscated.

On what grounds?


Drug money mainly. Look up civil asset forfeiture... It's been a problem for a while and has been highligted in a last week tonight episode recently.


It's not enough to go after drug dealers, you have to go after their families as well.


God save us if Trump is the new POTUS.


Hillary is just as bad regarding this topic.


I'm not much of a fan of Hillary's record either, but she never called for Snowden to be "assassinated".

I submit that an impulsive and narcissistic demagogue with no vested interest in "the establishment" is a far scarier leader in the context of a turnkey police state than even a right-wing career politician.


She said Snowden should return to the US and "face the music." [1]

Treason, punishable by death. [2]

IMO, "face the music" is code for "funeral march". [3]

1 http://www.businessinsider.com/democratic-debate-edward-snow...

2 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381

3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFyAqLtHq8


I think you are taking something said figuratively literally. Everyone has used "face the music" as an idiom to mean "take responsibility." I'll give her the benefit of doubt in this situation.


Since Snowden has taken responsibility, I don't see how you can construe was you said as anything other than a statement that Snowden should come back to the US and face prosecution for a capital offense.

That certainly isn't the same thing as calling for extra-legal assassination.


Calling for someone to return and stand trial is different from calling for someone to be assasinated


Not if the result of the trial is predetermined with a sentence to death or life in prison.


Her friend Kissinger would definitely advocate for Snowden's kidnapping and possible assassination. Then Hillary would say her advisers called for it and she followed their advice while she herself did not want to resort to such measures.

I submit that before a nation gets a narcissistic demagogue they have to first stop caring about due process.


agreed - a leader can't blame any decision on an advisor, lest the responsibility gets pushed around and diluted till no one is responsible for the consequences.


The quote was something Trump said about terrorists. He said it's not enough to go after the terrorists you have to go after their families too. I saw the quote in a clip from Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart did a great look at Trump in general [1].

[1]: http://youtu.be/DnpO_RTSNmQ


Hillary will be worse. She'll make Obama's IRS scandals look like schoolyard antics.


The singularity is coming... It just turns out it's fascism.


I would not be surprised if there are crowdfunding sites that help fund lawsuits or other legal matters.

Are there crowdfunding sites that help fund civil rights cases?

Edit: In other words, I'm beginning to think the only way to chip away at this sort of massive government overreach is to crowdfund the hell out of a ton of legitimate civil rights cases. Eventually maybe our government(s) (since I imagine US is not the only one to be concerned about) will get the hint.


They do not need to get the hint. All taxpayers are already "Crowdfunding" the govts lawyers. They lose nothing by fighting you in court.


  They lose nothing by fighting you in court.
I am 100% certain you are wrong about that.


I think they are a few organisational steps away from something truly terrifying. That will be when the NSA just hand over the 'graph' dataset of all the drug dealers to the FBI/local police. As it stands they have to have a clue, e.g. a name before they can get particulars. So policing is still 'hampered' conveniently for those that use drugs. So long as their network does not arouse the suspicions of the police then there need not be any suspicions.

However, if the complete 'graph' is just handed over then even the most discreet of networks could be uprooted, all chains and links identified, geolocated too. This could be done. All it would take is a Donald Trump to take it up another level. He could get a lot of votes by promising to use NSA data to eradicate drugs from America once and for all, with no drug-dealer left behind...

Aside from the 'where next' aspects, as it is, I found this article to be quite shocking. So much for the 'land of the free'.


Like Hillary wouldn't. She has Drug Warrior in her blood.


She would turn from that position the moment it became financially or politically expedient to do so.

Edited: for those downvoting, I invite you to consider how her (stated) positions on abortion and the black community have changed over the years. Everyone learns and changes their opinions over time, but her changes are too politically convenient to be simply personal development.


Most of the developed world is discovering freedom is something we (the public) don't much care about.

So the "land of the free" (and everywhere else) is free to give away all the hard-won freedoms to all and sundry. And they are. Because terrorism.


Meanwhile the leading Republican presidential nominee is a right-populist (a.k.a. fascist), and the Democratic presidential nominee was almost a left-populist (socialist).

We are literally one economic crisis or major terrorist attack away from some form of significantly more authoritarian if not outright totalitarian government. Whether it would be "left" or "right" is sort of up in the air, and might depend on which side is able to produce a more compelling demagogue at the right time. In any case if history is any guide it doesn't matter much. Totalitarianism is totalitarianism.

If that comes to pass, we're going to find out what "turn-key totalitarian state" means. The infrastructure is in place. The only barriers are legal and social/cultural.


While I agree that the US is becoming a "turn-key totalitarian state" it is patently absurd to compare Sanders' brand of social democracy (an ideology incredibly far from Socialism) with Trump's fascism.

Social democracy coexists with Western values in basically the entirety of Europe. It has not led to the collapse of the continent into some totalitarian nightmare.

The fascism being advocated by Trump and members of the alt-right however draws a lot of comparisons to the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, and not because the right is unpopular with academics or journalists but because Trump and his supporters are using violent and xenophobic/racist language while they scapegoat ethnic and religious out-groups.


Off topic but: while I do sympathize with Sanders a bit and I agree with most of what you wrote, I also think his popularity is being driven by the same populist wellspring as Trump. That makes me a bit afraid that we might end up with something more like Hugo Chavez's Venezuela than Denmark.

I also agree that Trump is scarier. I just wanted to be an equal opportunity hater of authoritarian ideologies and to make the point that the "key" that turns our "turn-key totalitarian state" to the "on" position could come from either side of the normal political continuum.


Socialists in the US Democratic party? Where?


>Meanwhile the leading Republican presidential nominee is a right-populist (a.k.a. fascist), and the Democratic presidential nominee was almost a left-populist (socialist).

That's just incendiary nonsense. Trump is no more fascist than Bernie Sanders.


Encouraging his supporters to "rough up" protestors and offering to pay their legal bills is about as fascist as it gets.


No it isn't. If you really want to see fascism in the US you have to go to college campuses, where students are expected to shout down speakers and assault them.


You're right and wrong. To the extent that such suppression is happening on campuses that is also an example, but it doesn't excuse Trump. Your argument amounts to "but those people are also a-holes!" Well okay, sure, but yeah.

That's why I included left-populism in my top level comment. Populism tends toward authoritarianism and... authoritarianism is authoritarianism. The extreme left and the extreme right converge on very similar things. In both cases you get a lot of "the end justifies the means" and we know where that goes.


Now you're just lying.


http://www.therebel.media/watch_triggered_protester_pours_bo...

http://nypost.com/2016/02/11/the-fight-for-tolerance-at-rutg...

That is fascism. Not what Trump is doing. When you try to prevent people from speaking. Not when they react.


> That's just incendiary nonsense. Trump is no more fascist than Bernie Sanders. -gozur88

Troll much?

  fas·cism
  noun
  an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social  organization.


Yeah, thanks for providing the grade school definition. It really adds to the conversation.


I'm impressed that you learned about fascism in "grade school" - maybe you can add to the conversation by outlining your more nuanced understanding?



It's time to shut down the NSA for good.


I wonder why you're being downvoted? Perhaps they know something we don't about the terrorist attacks averted and Constitutional protections upheld due to the NSA's virtuous efforts?


In my humble opinion, something that folks may want to think about is existing NSA data retention plus the statutes of limitations.

Now various agencies can trawl back through decades of data collection and see what people can still be prosecuted for, extorted with, etc.


If that is true then that I think is a violation of due process. If proven to have happened then many people can simply go free due to technicalities of the law. Awkward for the FBI.


To quote the great Gomer Pyle, "surprise, surprise, surprise!"


Public announcement of these programs is good. It opens the door to Constitutional scrutiny.

These actions were happening anyway. Aren't we better off now that they're acknowledged and can be challenged?


We need to stop this bullshit from happening. We the people.


"What is your hue?"

The question will become relevant soon enough.



More doors in, more doors out. Bad OPSEC.


So how many candidates in the upcoming election are publicly against this kind of data mining?


Publicly against it doesn't really mean anything for politicians (look at Obama)... I think that looking at their voting history is probably more reliable (in Congress or Senate, if available).


Bernie Sanders is probably the only one even debatably supportive of privacy sincerely.


This is honestly the road to 1984.


This sounds exactly like what is happening right now.

"All lives matter" gets you harassed and possibly fired.


We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11262848 and marked it off-topic.


The phrase "all lives matter" is an obvious parody of "black lives matter" that effectively serves to minimize well-documented and disproportionate per-capita violence against African-Americans by US police. To those who have seen and experienced the effects of this violence first hand, those comments likely come off as petty and out of touch with reality. This may be a reason why people don't want to voluntarily associate with someone who would say/write "all lives matter".


It's not that anyone disagrees that all lives matter, it's that your intention in saying "all lives matter" is to undermine a legitimate social cause. "Black Lives Matter" supporters aren't saying that other lives don't matter, they're saying that black lives matter too -- and that's a valid point in a country where blacks, for example, are much more likely to receive the death penalty for committing the same offences.


So... was "too" too difficult to say?


No it's implied, was the implication too tough for you to figure out?


I can figure out multiple implications. Apparently some of them contradict each other.


"and that's a valid point in a country where blacks, for example, are much more likely to receive the death penalty for committing the same offences."

I would really like to see these statistics from a legitimate source, because I'm not sure where you are even getting it.

My issue is that the 'black lives matter' cause has merely become a thinly disguised fascist group aimed at bullying and destroying anyone that disagrees with them.

"Hands up, don't shoot" never happened. This was proven, yet it didn't stop the hashtag warriors from screaming it at everybody and news anchors on networks from CNN standing behind it (after it was proven false).

Facts no longer matter. It's all about the narrative that everyone is racist against blacks, no matter what actually happened.

All of these protests have added body cams to many police forces. Most people are now silent about it. I have seen case after case where a cop is accused of 'racism' and the body cam shows otherwise.

The US is probably the least racist country in the world when it comes to minorities. Try to get a job in Asia, Europe, or Africa. You will quickly see the difference.

In most countries outside the US, you are required to send them a picture and they can not hire you for pretty much any reason.

Instead of focusing on being a victim, the minorities in the US should focus on education and keeping families in tact. It's really the only path to success. The Irish, Italians, and Chinese were all treated like slaves in this country and were able to overcome this through education and a strong family structure.

I've worked at many different companies and I've never seen racism in terms of hiring (although I'm sure it happens in a small amount of cases). Businesses just want someone that can do the job. If a person isn't getting past the hiring manager, it's most likely because they don't have the required skill set.

Many people like me, are angry and frustrated because the alleged victims have now become the bullies. I wish we could have true equality, where race truly doesn't matter, but I think I'm asking for too much.

It's funny how true equality is seen as a bad thing. I am now part of the counter-culture, which means I don't want aggressive bullies being allowed to control the speech and actions of me or others.

I don't want our society to continue along this broken and misguided path and it's why many educated people are voting for Trump.


And punished for even mentioning it, as the votes on your comment demonstrate.


These days everyone smart and educated wants to be a 'no-BS' skeptic type person. That means categorically rejecting anything that smells like certain kinds of "low-brow" thought. What I wrote trips the "conspiracy theory" heuristic, so it gets tossed.

It's a lazy cheap heuristic. If you took what's happening today and went back in time 20 years and posted about it on the 1990s Internet, even the wacko conspiracy nuts would call you crazy.


We knew about the NSA over 30 years ago. We knew about Echelon over 20 years ago. Nothing in the Snowden dump was a surprise. Only confirmation.


You don't even need a time machine to see the truth in what you've said. Remember the seemingly absurd "silent black helicopters" of conspiracy lore? Then look what was revealed during the bin Laden raid. Of course plenty of people were calling 1984 conspiratorial drivel as well. The world of today puts that to shame.


Will the punishment never cease??




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: