I understand - and even respect - what you are trying to do.
But I think you're going about it in the exact opposite way, you are starting an 'arms race', which will eventually runaway with voting blocks controlling what gets posted on HN.
That site is called 'Digg' I believe.
The first group of guys that gets away with it will engender the second and the third, after all, if it's ok that you do it why would it not be ok for other groups to do it?
I've seen first hand how effective it is what you are doing but I simply disagree with it, even if it is content that I like.
To pretend that I'm 'making it up' is disingenuous, especially since you - of all people - are most aware that it is very real.
No need to apologize, I'm not made of sugar, I just like to know what rules we're playing by.
Essentially you're saying HN is fair game and you can gang together your votes in order to gain effective control of the site to maintain a certain character, and I would like us all to retain our individuality in order to do exactly the same.
So we disagree - strongly - about the means but definitely not about the goal.
You are trying to create a solution by staging a 'behind the scenes coup' I would like a solution that creates a level playing field for everybody.
I've seen first hand how effective it is what you are doing but I simply disagree with it, even if it is content that I like.
Translation: "What you're doing works, but I disagree with it based on abstract principles, even though I like the results."
You are trying to create a solution by staging a 'behind the scenes coup' I would like a solution that creates a level playing field for everybody.
We already have a level playing field: it's called "Google". The point of a site like HN is not to create some kind of abstractly idealist "level playing field", but to provide content that people (me included) want to read.
Ultimately, you could disagree with what we do on the basis of "fairness" - but actually our system is more fair. There are many cases where someone brought up an excellent link that was from a site never before posted on HN, and/or posted by an unknown user. We're actually achieving the aim of fairness even more. Remember, this is an open channel, everyone (you included) is welcome to show up and be a part of it. There's no "karma check" at the front door. Hell, some people on #startups don't even have HN users.
Unlike the digg cabal that you compare us to, joining this channel requires only that you fire up your IRC client and join freenode#startups. And no one is under any obligation to vote up anything. Hardly a voting ring, I'd say.
I see us as an optimisation mechanism to help great content get to the front page - there's nothing dodgy about it at all. Which is why, unlike your earlier suggestion, I am not "mad because you pointed out our little group". I think it's bad form in general to post stuff from an IRC channel onto a public forum, but I'm not made of sugar either.
In fact, I'd say, please do join us there (and this applies to anyone reading this). We're a friendly bunch and very welcoming, and a lot of the most active HN users hang out there. Find us here:
The thing is, I think even this really overstates what actually happens there. I'd guess maybe 10-20 votes on any given day to all of HN stem from things being mentioned in there. It's not like the channel actually controls the site. If it's a conspiracy, it's a pretty ineffective one.
I didn't mean that they were the only people on the site, I meant that whatever the people on #startups are doing, they've been doing for a long time. Far from staging a coup, they're already an embedded power and have been a fundamental part of shaping the site into whatever it currently is.
Which I'm fine with. I've been much more disappointed with newbie contributions than anything I've noticed from the #startups crew. I don't want democracy here, I want quality.
But I think you're going about it in the exact opposite way, you are starting an 'arms race', which will eventually runaway with voting blocks controlling what gets posted on HN.
That site is called 'Digg' I believe.
The first group of guys that gets away with it will engender the second and the third, after all, if it's ok that you do it why would it not be ok for other groups to do it?
I've seen first hand how effective it is what you are doing but I simply disagree with it, even if it is content that I like.
To pretend that I'm 'making it up' is disingenuous, especially since you - of all people - are most aware that it is very real.
No need to apologize, I'm not made of sugar, I just like to know what rules we're playing by.
Essentially you're saying HN is fair game and you can gang together your votes in order to gain effective control of the site to maintain a certain character, and I would like us all to retain our individuality in order to do exactly the same.
So we disagree - strongly - about the means but definitely not about the goal.
You are trying to create a solution by staging a 'behind the scenes coup' I would like a solution that creates a level playing field for everybody.