> To be really effective in your non-work time, x would have to be at most 5 or less
That doesn't sound very effective to me
> Reducing expenses to half is pretty tough given the biggest expense is rent/mortgage.
This is simply a matter of finding a location to live where rent is not a big expense. All you need is an internet connection. You don't have to live in the Bay Area to create software and there are plenty of cheap places to live, both in the U.S. and in other countries.
> Reducing work to half is harder since there are not very many companies that are okay with 20 hrs or less a week. This also means you wont get health insurance.
I take it you don't have a lot of experience freelancing, but it's very easy to find as much or little work as you're willing to do - I did it for years. I also find that the best health insurance policy is to take care of yourself. Beyond that, just get the highest deductible plan you possibly can and minimize your health risks (thankfully programming is not very hazardous).
> But as a single person or a family in the US, this just doesnt make sense.
If it doesn't make sense for a single person in the U.S. then who does it make sense for? Ask yourself who you're trying to convince, me, or yourself? Ever notice how much easier it is to come up with reasons why something is impossible than it is to actually try it for yourself?
You've made it pretty clear that it's possible, if you're willing to jump through a bunch of hoops and are a programmer, to begin to have the privilege of an altruistic lifestyle. That is, the kind that will help thousands if not millions of persons to get higher quality of life.
'just move somewhere with low cost of living' - what about family and friends? non-profits are hiring in the middle of nowhere, I guess? what about most housing requiring a year-long contract? what about rural internet connectivity being a complete joke, and most cellular plans are by the GB?
'just take care of yourself and get a low deductible health insurance plan' - what about if you aren't healthy? what about if you have dependents? Where's the good care now that you're living away from cities? You're suggesting we move away from the best that humanity and technology has to offer?
'just cut down your expenses by 10x!' - ...you're joking, right? It's going to be really hard to live on $200/mo in any american city. Cost of living is going up everywhere, unless you're suggesting moving somewhere that's not growing. And wages have been stagnating for decades. See this post by Michael Church - https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much Only so much can be cut.
'just freelance! I did it, so can you' - times are changing, and that lifestyle simply isn't compatible with your average student coming out of our education systems. Also, freelancing suffers from being a chicken and egg kind of problem.
"If it doesn't make sense for a single person in the U.S. then who does it make sense for?"
Exactly. Hardly anyone. Our society is structured in such a way that it's very hard to be altruistic, compared to being selfish and seeking greater and greater pay through whatever job.
Have a social app idea? Here's $mil!! Uber for Z? $mil!! Oh it didn't work out? Ok, what else, what else...
Have a altruistic app idea that will improve the quality of life in a way that's hard to measure? Er haven't you heard? Not even schools can get funding. Teacher pay is frozen indefinitely.
Why does it take someone to be independently wealthy first, or live a lifestyle very much unlike the rest of the population, to be an effective altruistic in our society?
I have answers to all your points, but I can't help but think you'd just come up with ways to debunk all of them. All I can say is that I wholeheartedly suggest you take a step back and ask yourself why you see roadblocks everywhere instead of opportunities. Skepticism and even a little cynicism is understandable, and I indulge in it every once and a while too. But it seems to me like you're going out of your way to convince me (or more likely, yourself) that it's impossible to change your situation or make an impact in this world, and that's something you should really examine. I say this without a hint of derision or condescension.
Okay, let's take a step back. I mostly agree with you and I'm not at all offended; there are answers and the way is open. I can go against the flow of money and work for other reasons, especially if I'm a talented, determined programmer. In fact, I have made huge strides towards being able to dedicate myself fully to work I think is important. Made an impact? No, not in any direct way, not yet, but I am trying and moving step by step towards that ability and execution. Through autodidactism, frugal lifestyle, a productive career in software, and planning.
What about everyone else? The question was, 'how happy are you working as a programmer?", and I answered, "not particularly, because I'm in a favorable position to see how hard it is for everyone else, and how much harder it seems it's going to get as automation continues to consume existing business processes".
Can you really say with a straight face that more than a very lucky small minority of the 7.3+ billion people can realistically pursue a lifestyle of altruism? Many of them can't even work for money, but can only think on how to survive to the next day, the next week. You don't even have to go to a third world country to find it. How happy are those people, and what is your advice for them?
> Can you really say with a straight face that more than a very lucky small minority of the 7.3+ billion people can realistically pursue a lifestyle of altruism?
Honestly, I think the best thing we can do is to continue to try to innovate and automate. Global poverty has been dropping consistently for decades and that rate doesn't appear to be changing. I credit this to globalization, advances in technology, and relative peace throughout the globe because of strategic alliances and military stalemates.
The best thing we can do as engineers is continue to add real value to the world by automating as much as we can. Robots work for free, and despite what people love to parrot, efficiencies are enjoyed by everyone, not just the 1%.
In other words, simply contributing value to society through your work is altruistic. As opposed to those who don't work at all and contribute nothing, for whom I have very little sympathy or patience.
>I also find that the best health insurance policy is to take care of yourself
>minimize your health risks (thankfully programming is not very hazardous
health risks from being seated and sedentary all day are quite extreme.
Unless you meant they should join a gym and increase their expenses, thus increasing the amount of work they need to do to pay their bills.
So we've got:
health insurance,
car insurance,
gym membership,
housing/rent,
food,
gas,
internet connection,
electricity,
any current debt (student loans, car loans, mortgage, personal loans, etc),
any savings contributions for retirement.
So yeah, just cut all those expenses by 10x, have a job that allows you to work less than 20 hours/ week from anywhere, and have a altruistic goal that can also be met remotely without interacting with anyone ever.
Oh and also, be a programmer - remember that an altruistic life is reserved for very specific niches of society, altruism should never be the goal of the huddled masses.
> Unless you meant they should join a gym and increase their expenses, thus increasing the amount of work they need to do to pay their bills.
On what planet is a gym membership required to maintain a healthy lifestyle? How's this for an option: instead of owning/maintaining a car and paying for car insurance, ride a bike to work. Now you've killed two birds with one stone.
> internet connection
How about instead of paying for an internet connection you go to a library or hang out at a coffeeshop when you need to use it. Or go in with a neighbor to get it cheaper.
> any current debt (student loans, car loans, mortgage, personal loans, etc)
Sell the car, sell the house, and as far as the student loans go, consolidate them and pay the minimum for as long as you need to.
> So yeah, just cut all those expenses by 10x, have a job that allows you to work less than 20 hours/ week from anywhere, and have a altruistic goal that can also be met remotely without interacting with anyone ever.
Most people's expenses can be cut by about that much if they just give up the luxury of owning and operating a car and move to a region/neighborhood that has much cheaper rent (or take roommates gasp!). I have to image if your very survival depended on a 10x decrease in your expenses you'd be clever enough to make it happen.
> Oh and also, be a programmer - remember that an altruistic life is reserved for very specific niches of society, altruism should never be the goal of the huddled masses.
I don't remember me or anyone else ever saying that in this thread.
LOL, in a rural location that you suggested to lower rent? Work is likely to be at least a 20 minute commute by car, more than 15 miles each way for sure. ( the US average commute time is 25.4 minutes) Also, biking to and from work would reduce the time you are able to spend on your altruism even further.
>How about instead of paying for an internet connection you go to a library or hang out at a coffeeshop when you need to use it. Or go in with a neighbor to get it cheaper.
Because no one is going to hire a remote freelancer without an internet connection? are you even serious? this is laughable.
>sell the house
right cutting your expenses is much easier when youre not paying rent, youre right just be homeless! then you can help all the animals you want!
>as far as the student loans go, consolidate them and pay the minimum for as long as you need to.
right, still left with a student loan payment at the end of that, so this doesnt offer any solutions at all.
> luxury of owning and operating a car and move to a region/neighborhood that has much cheaper rent (or take roommates gasp!)
So where do you have in mind? you must have something really specific in mind because i cant think of a single area with very low cost of living and very high bikeable/walkable streets - please enlighten us as to the perfect place to live.
>I don't remember me or anyone else ever saying that in this thread.
right, but youre giving advice that says "you dont need basic income to be altruistic, you can just work remotely and live somewhere cheap, then work less and use your free time to be altruistic"
Wherein the 'working remotely' applies only to a very niche set of jobs (which all universally require an internet connection and specific set of skills)
Sorry man, your hypothetical solution is plainly not realistic.
In order to help save the lives of animals thats what this person should do?
They should:
Move to a low cost of living area
Work at most half as much as you do now (and have a job that is somehow OK with that)
sell your car
sell your house
consolidate all loans
get a remote freelance job
get rid of your internet connection and only use the library
cut all your costs by 10x
bike to work
oh right, also:
dont have a spouse
dont have children
work in a remote-friendly industry
desire to perform remote-friendly altruistic work
dont save for retirement
dont get sick
dont get injured
but yeah man, this sounds totally doable for anyone who wants to support a cause, this sounds like the type of society anyone would want to live in; way worse than providing people with a basic income enabling the entire country to pursue their altruism
Do you honestly think thats reasonable? For someone to be altruistic they /should/ have to make all those decisions and sacrifices?
If you do, i'd love to hear why you think it should be impossible for a secretary, or a janitor, or an accountant to be altruistic and to work towards altruistic goals. Or for that matter someone living in New york or san francisco. Should those cities be devoid of altruism because they are more expensive?
I don't think you've earnestly considered the implications of your suggestion and that was the point of my responding at all. "helping animals is easy! just quit your job and move across the country" echos exactly the ops sentiments that it takess a herculean effort to effect any change in todays economy. You disputed that by laying out a specific herculean effort and tried to brush it off as a simple life decision.
Not only do I think it's completely reasonable, I have done it myself and know others who have done it as well. Come to Minnesota, there's plenty of work, both remote and contract, and your cost of living can be very low depending on where you live. We also have great mass transit, are the most bike friendly city in the country, have the lowest unemployment rate in the country, and the best parks system in the country as well.
> If you do, i'd love to hear why you think it should be impossible for a secretary, or a janitor, or an accountant to be altruistic and to work towards altruistic goals.
Why can't these people work toward these goals in their spare time? Why does it have to be an all-or-nothing proposition? And if it does, why can't you start a non-profit where you can pay yourself a living wage and take donations from others who don't have the time to help but have the money to help. And why not just cut your expenses today, keep your high paying job, and donate your additional money to causes you believe in?
People can be altruistic without being rich or privileged. To suggest otherwise is completely offensive and short-sided. And being rich and privileged doesn't automatically equate to someone being more effective altruists. In fact, it's often the opposite case because their experiences are too isolated and foreign to be relatable to the causes they support (see charity-as-tourism).
But what it comes down to is you not wanting it to be hard to do something. And I'm not saying it isn't hard, because it is. But most things worth doing are hard, and complaining about them doesn't do anybody any good. Instead of complaining and creating long lists on internet forums of all the reasons why something is too hard to do you go and actually test your assumptions.
I don't mean to sound harsh but I can't help but respond to such negativity with anything other than exasperation. I can't motivate you, but I hope you find somebody or something that can because it sounds like you want to make a real difference in this world.
You are right, I dont have a lot of experience freelancing. And I agree that the differential between rents in different places in the US large enough that one can decrease or increase it significantly by moving. I do however think that "the best insurance policy is to take care of yourself" is not really something you can bank on. Unexpected things happen. You have to set something up to prevent that as much as you can.
In summary, I am not as opposed to your equation after this reply from you, but I still maintain its hard to do. As a challenge, I am going to see if I can accomplish it. Thanks for the kick in the back! :)
That doesn't sound very effective to me
> Reducing expenses to half is pretty tough given the biggest expense is rent/mortgage.
This is simply a matter of finding a location to live where rent is not a big expense. All you need is an internet connection. You don't have to live in the Bay Area to create software and there are plenty of cheap places to live, both in the U.S. and in other countries.
> Reducing work to half is harder since there are not very many companies that are okay with 20 hrs or less a week. This also means you wont get health insurance.
I take it you don't have a lot of experience freelancing, but it's very easy to find as much or little work as you're willing to do - I did it for years. I also find that the best health insurance policy is to take care of yourself. Beyond that, just get the highest deductible plan you possibly can and minimize your health risks (thankfully programming is not very hazardous).
> But as a single person or a family in the US, this just doesnt make sense.
If it doesn't make sense for a single person in the U.S. then who does it make sense for? Ask yourself who you're trying to convince, me, or yourself? Ever notice how much easier it is to come up with reasons why something is impossible than it is to actually try it for yourself?