I'm a researcher in this area if anyone wants to have a proper conversation. I'm 95% convinced that the major powers of the world have recovered crashed/landed non-human intelligence craft.
Before anyone responds to this comment, I would urge you to watch this video of Majority Leader Schumer and rising republican leader Mike Rounds giving a soliloquy on the senate floor to try to pass their UAP Disclosure Act and ask yourself - why would two senate leaders put their credibility on the line to try to pass a bill that references non-human intelligence 21 times?
> NON-HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.—The term
‘‘non-human intelligence’’ means any sen-
tient intelligent non-human lifeform regard-
less of nature or ultimate origin that may be
presumed responsible for unidentified anom-
alous phenomena or of which
My guess is they found a room-temperature superconductor that can store incredible amounts of electrical energy, and the quantum drive from https://ivolimited.us/ actually works.
I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because some closed-minded person told me to.
These politicians are not experts, but the witnesses that have testified under oath are.
Lue Elizondo - GS15 officer at the DIA, who's last assignment was running Special Access Program for the National Security Council.
David Grusch - GS15 officer at NRO then NGA who handled the Presidential Daily Briefing for the NGA (meaning he was cleared to thousands of SAPs to consolidate information and brief the president)
I don't disagree that congress gets lost in conspiracy theories, but almost never do people pandering those testify under oath in public, or privately to the intelligence committees or ICIG. You should open your mind and take a deeper look than the headlines.
The universe is 13.8 billion years old. The JWST has found galaxies formed just 400 million years after the Big Bang. It took the earth 4.6 billion years to form, and 1 billion years to create life.
Our best theory of the universe, General Relativity, has solutions that allow for faster-than-light travel via some Alcubierre type drive (some [without negative mass](https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.02709)), and even wormholes.
Even with newtonian mechanic style solutions, it's estimated that it would only take Von Neumann self-replicating probes about 100k years to traverse our own galaxy.
Is it really that unlikely that some non-human intelligence potentially *billions* of years more advanced than us found our planet and uses it to study us or for whatever other purposes to them? IMO no.
And if you would do any research beyond just the headlines, you might come to the realization that our probably has government has recovered crashed/landed NHI craft.
I'm happy to point you to some not-so-light reading if you want to have a real conversation about this.
A civilisation billions of years more advanced than us should surely be putting out some sort of signal, intentionally or not, that they exist, right? And yet we've never seen any kind of signal like that. Space is incomprehensibly large and empty, and while I also absolutely believe that there is some other kind of life in the universe, the fact that we've never detected any means they've probably never detected us either, so there's no reason they would be coming here
> the fact that we've never detected any means they've probably never detected us either
I do not think that your conclusion necessarily follows. They could easily be much more advanced than us, just as we are much more advanced than we were 500 years ago.
I am just saying that there could be a more advanced whatever you may call it that could detect us while we cannot. Much more advanced to us than we are today.
> Is it really that unlikely that some non-human intelligence potentially billions of years more advanced than us
I think there's a fine-tuning problem with that kind of argument. You have to believe all the steps that make intelligent space-faring life elsewhere come into being, and yet only one other manages to do so. If there were more than one, then it seems to me the same argument about government conspiracies would apply: every single one of them would have to work very hard to hide any evidence of their existence - not just from our mobile phones, but our most advanced telescopes.
I think if there were others close enough to matter, we'd have been colonised by an errant Von Neumann machine by now.
> You have to believe all the steps that make intelligent space-faring life elsewhere come into being
I would argue that it's very selfish thinking we would be the only intelligent life in the universe, let alone our own galaxy. If you're throwing out the entire argument based on that presumption, then this conversation is pointless.
Science is about optimism to learn what we don't know. There are things in the sky that we can't identify, as Obama has said https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1hNYs55sqs We should be open to the idea of all possibilities, rather than dousing fire on it.
> I think if there were others close enough to matter, we'd have been colonised by an errant Von Neumann machine by now.
As long as were exploring wild theories, how about this one: Aliens smarter than us have colonized earth and are manipulating our information sources so we are not aware. Further, every once in a while they "give" us discoveries to advance our technology in a controlled manner. Perhaps we're captives in what is equivalent to a zoo.
I find that more pleasant to imagine than aggressive/hostile aliens that could probably destroy our civilization in about 17 seconds, though that would have the benefit of solving all of our problems in one fell swoop.
I already thought of that one - bacteria and fungi are their compute substrate for their immaterial cities. (ref: diaspora by Greg Egan, and surface detail by Ian M. Banks).
>it seems to me the same argument about government conspiracies would apply: every single one of them would have to work very hard to hide any evidence of their existence - not just from our mobile phones, but our most advanced telescopes.
I'm posting this because it's crazy to me how the link regarding Jimmy Carter's UFO encounter gets upvoted in HackerNews, but not David Grursch's claims. Grusch was a former NRO/NGA intel officer. He testified under oath to the Intelligence Community Inspector Generals, both Senate/House Intel Committees, and a public House Oversight Committee under oath that the USG has recovered crashed/landed non-human intelligence craft. The ICIG referred Grusch's claims to the intel committees as being "credible" and "urgent".
David Grusch is not some random whistleblower we should be ignoring. He was a GS-15 intel officer read into over 2000 special access programs. He handled the presidential daily briefing, which they do not give to just anyone. Take a look at his resume to see how highly cleared he was https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO06/20230726/116282/HHRG....
And let me just clarify - this is not just one person's claims. His work in the UAP Task Force had 40 people with direct, first hand knowledge of the programs. Some of whom worked on the non-human intelligence (NHI) craft. He had these people testify to the ICIG, providing documentation, imagery, and other evidence.
Listen, I know this sounds insane to most folks. The meat of his claims, beyond the craft, are that factions of the USG have not been properly giving congress(and even some presidents) oversight of these alleged Special Access Programs. The ICIG has most likely referred this case to the justice department, and his claims have started a congressional UAP Caucus in the house.
Take a look at this interview with Marco Rubio, the ranking member of the Senate Intel Committee, as he's talking about the 40 whistleblower's claims https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4hmaflNoKU
If you haven't watched the HOC hearing, or any of his other interviews, I highly recommend you do so. Or at the very least, read his opening statement he was giving to the HOC
I'm not saying the claims are true. I'm just saying, the allegations are worth investigating and should not be dismissed outright.
One final note. After Grusch's claims released, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer introduced an amendment to the NDAA 2024 titled "UAP Disclosure Act" which would've set up a presidential panel to declassify and release information that the USG has on the subject. It references the terminology "non-human intelligence" 27 times. The amendment was gutted by certain house members and unfortunately did not make it through in its initial form, but it's worth the read. https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/uap_amendment....
There's strict protocols for aircraft flying near the president's aircraft. There's no way in hell the airbase would allow take off while the president is in the air and he wouldn't have been told about it.
I couldn’t even take a video of an enormous search & rescue flare on a chute less than 1 km away at night and have it show up. If that’s legit, those lights must have been blinding
This shape specifically (black triangle with white lights in each corner and an independent round red ball in the middle) has been reported numerous times over the decades, most prominently presented in the Belgian UFO wave 1989-1991 [1][2], including F-16 chases.
It's crazy to me how this link gets upvoted in HackerNews but not David Grursch's (former NRO/NGA Intel Officer) claims don't. He testified under oath to the Intelligence Community Inspector Generals, both Senate/House Intel Committees, and a public House Oversight Committee under oath that the USG has recovered crashed/landed non-human intelligence craft. The ICIG referred Grusch's claims to the intel committees as being "credible" and "urgent".
David Grusch is not some random whistleblower we should be ignoring. He was a GS-15 intel officer read into over 2000 special access programs. He handled the presidential daily briefing, which they do not give to just anyone. Take a look at his resume to see how highly cleared he was https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO06/20230726/116282/HHRG....
And let me just clarify - this is not just one person's claims. His work in the UAP Task Force had 40 people with direct, first hand knowledge of the programs. Some of whom worked on the NHI craft. He had these people testify to the ICIG, providing documentation, imagery, and other evidence.
Listen, I know this sounds insane to most folks. The meat of his claims, beyond the craft, are that factions of the USG have *not* been properly giving congress(and even some presidents) oversight of these alleged Special Access Programs. The ICIG has most likely referred this case to the justice department, and his claims have started a congressional UAP Caucus in the house.
Take a look at this interview with Marco Rubio, the ranking member of the Senate Intel Committee, as he's talking about the 40 whistleblower's claims https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4hmaflNoKU
If you haven't watched the HOC hearing, or any of his other interviews, I highly recommend you do so. Or at the very least, read his opening statement he was giving to the HOC
I'm not saying the claims are true. I'm just saying, the allegations are worth investigating and should not be dismissed outright.
Edit: One final note. After Grusch's claims released, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer introduced an amendment to the NDAA 2024 titled "UAP Disclosure Act" which would've set up a presidential panel to declassify and release information that the USG has on the subject. It references the terminology "non-human intelligence" 27 times. The amendment was gutted by certain house members and unfortunately did not make it through in its initial form, but it's worth the read. https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/uap_amendment...
At least it's getting discussed now. I think part of the reason could be Grusch is like "the deep end" for many people. Whereas Carter seeing a maybe-UFO is an easier introduction, which is perfectly fine! Everyone is at a different stage at this point :)
ty :) this is definitely a topic that's too taboo for most people to touch, but the allegations of the DoD withholding information from congress is very serious and this should not be overlooked. If his claims are true, our democracy is in peril imo
Ur welcome! :) Totally, it is something which majorly does not look good.
I think people in power should just come clean and say "We have no idea what's going on." But how can people in power admit something more powerful is toying with them?
It's pretty hard, but I think their honesty would build credibility and begin the path not just of healing but of figuring out: what it is, do we need to respond, and how to respond. And getting away from the tired narrative of relying on government for "disclosure", that only recenters their authority in the face of a threat to it, and disempowers people. But I think we need to be empowered to deal with this: whether it's militarily, scientifically or studied in other ways.
I think this is something that we need to deal with together, as a country or even world. I don't think some group of people working in the shadows can handle it. Hasn't it been 100 years already? But their reactions are still some reflection of "run, deny, hide". Not a great look for leaders and systems we are supposed to depend on!! So I think it can be better handled for sure.
Totally agree this is something the world needs to investigate together. That's why Grusch asked DOPSR for clearance to talk about the 1933 Magenta, Italy crash. Him and Elizondo have been working with Italian government officials regarding the official reports of the crash.
But, ultimately, I think one of the major powers has to own up to the reverse engineering programs for this to be taken seriously by the public.
At the bottom of the page you can find a search bar with which you can discover that David Grusch's claims and the UAP phenomenon in general have been done to death here.
There is no real discussion to be had on the topic. People choose to believe Grusch and others because of their own faith in the ET/UFO narrative as a first principle. People doubt Grusch and others because none of them ever present compelling evidence, and their claims in aggregate are ridiculous. The former camp mocks the latter camp, the latter camp mocks the former. Eventually the discussion splinters into talk of Von Neumann probes, generation ships and the Fermi Paradox. Lather, rinse repeat.
But here we all are still waiting for the "catastrophic disclosure" that should have happened by now. And for what it's worth the government's own investigations have consistently come to the conclusion that no extraterrestrial or physics-defying technologies are involved, and the vast majority of what's been presented as undeniable proof via video and photographic evidence turns out to have mundane explanations. But of course one can simply write that conclusion off as part of the conspiracy.
> the government's own investigations have consistently come to the conclusion that no extraterrestrial or physics-defying technologies are involved
I'm not sure if you've looked into the government's self investigations in the 70s regarding claims the CIA was experiment on their own populace where they also found no evidence. But 20 years later the CIA declassified those documents to show the CIA absolutely was dosing cities with LSD in the water supply.
My point being, the Department of Defense investigating itself is like letting a murderer run his own investigation.
Yes, I'm aware of MKULTRA. Everyone is aware of MKULTRA.
But the Department of Defense investigating this phenomenon is the only basis the UFO community has for considering any of the UAP/UFO stuff credible. It's why they trust David Grusch, because, as they claim, no one would just go in front of Congress and tell lies (or in Grusch's case, because he has no actual firsthand knowledge of anything, repeat someone else's lies.)
You can't have it both ways. You can't say this is real because the government is looking into it, and that the government can't be trusted with its findings.
The government/DoD isn't a single entity. Especially when it comes to waived, bigoted special access programs where only a handful of people will even know the programs exist. So just because one person says "oh we don't have any evidence of these programs" doesn't mean they actually know. It just means they haven't been read in.
All of the evidence is classified. If he would've brought out imagery or any evidence to the public, he would've been put in jail.
And it's not "hearsay" He brought 40 people with first hand knowledge to the ICIG. People who worked in the reverse engineering programs - who touched the craft.
Unlike Snowden who just released a bunch of classified information to the public, Grusch went through the proper whistleblower channels and submitted the evidence to the ICIG.
Look at my edit regarding the Senate Majority leader.
There will still be cases where more fine tuned control is warranted. Rust has done this very intelligently by moving data race controls to the compiler level.
Before anyone responds to this comment, I would urge you to watch this video of Majority Leader Schumer and rising republican leader Mike Rounds giving a soliloquy on the senate floor to try to pass their UAP Disclosure Act and ask yourself - why would two senate leaders put their credibility on the line to try to pass a bill that references non-human intelligence 21 times?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8a0P617nqw&t=93s
And, I would urge you to read the bill. It's one of the most comprehensive pieces of legislations that has been put out this decade https://www.congress.gov/118/crec/2024/07/11/170/115/CREC-20...
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