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Interesting! I feel like I'm learning to code all over again! I've only been using Claude for a little more than a month and until now I've been figuring things out on my own. Building my methodology from scratch. This is much more advanced than what I'm doing. I've been going straight to implementation, but doing one very small and limited feature at a time, describing implementation details (data structures like this, use that API here, import this library etc) verifying it manually, and having Claude fix things I don't like. I had just started getting annoyed that it would make the same (or very similar) mistake over and over again and I would have to fix it every time. This seems like it'll solve that problem I had only just identified! Neat!

Is it weird that the 1900 style is closer to how I typically write than the first 2000 style? I'm not that old, am I?

The difference between 1900 and 2000 seems to largely be the voice/intended audience changing rather than the language.

I.e. the 2000s one is a casual travel blog style intended normally intended for any random quick reader and the 1900s one is more a mix of academic sounding/formal conversation intended for longer content. If you assume a more casual voice in the 1900s one and a more formal voice in the 2000s one I bet they'd even almost seem to be placed backwards chronologically.


The 2000 sample was a bit exaggerated.

What do you mean, you can't quote the Linux kernel by heart? I thought it was gospel for all nerds:

Loongarch kernel, first paragraph, the lord Linus said, in all his wisdom: /* Hardware capabilities */ unsigned int elf_hwcap __read_mostly EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL(elf_hwcap)


Apple Inc. was right there man.

Talk about missing the low hanging fruit!

;)


So how is Ubuntu touch doing these days? I keep meaning to try it, but never get around to it!

Mobian and postmarketOS are more advanced and work more like GNU/Linux.

"The only problem is, no one needs their dream application"

I vibe coded my dream application, and I use it. I wouldn't really say I _need_ a pixel art editor for Android, but I sure do like it!

Do I really need more than that? Am I not allowed to create my dream app, for me? Nobody needs my pixel art either, honestly I kinda suck at drawing, but I enjoy doing it!

Op needs to get off their high horse and stop shiting on people for making things. Go make something and stop whining


I'm not shitting on you at all, you're actually not the type of person I was talking about at all. The thread I reference (and link to) at the opening of the blog post sets a lot of the scene. That thread was about Show HN being flooded with slop.

Making for yourself is great, if you make for others you need to actually consider what they need.


I hope we can move on from the whole idea that having a thousand word long blog post talking shit about you in any way reflects poorly upon your person. Like sooner or later everyone will have a few of those, maybe we can stop worrying about reputation so much?

Well,a guy can dream....


If you have ten thousand of 'em, they feed the new generation of AIs and the next thing you know, it's received truth. Good luck not worrying about that.

The LLM HR chats with to get a summary about you says that you're evil and an asshole with lots of negative publicity, and you become unhireable. Oh dear...

We'll just have to level the playing field! Once it says that about everyone, it won't matter anymore!

Just gotta buy me one of these lobster machines to write hit pieces on everyone on LinkedIn


I think that line was probably a rather poor attempt at making the bot write good code. Or at least that's the feeling I got from the operators post. I have no proof to support this theory though

What content bans does Europe have? /Confused European

In Germany there are some examples for the suppression of speech. For example popular examples are: (1) getting your house raided for calling a politician a dick (2) getting your house raided for calling a politician stupid (3) most recent, just in this week, a retiree gets into trouble with the police for asking worried questions about migration

(1) https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/hamburg-wohnungsdurch... (2) https://www.justiz.bayern.de/media/images/behoerden-und-geri... (3) https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article6996cb47fc148...

These are examples that spontaneously come to my mind. So I can not talk for whatever country you live in but Germany has a problem about being able to express opinions.


(1) Is also because it's literally vandalism. (2) Also points out that there were posts of holocaust denial, which has been illegal in most of europe for literal decades. (3) Is an article about an investigation into whether or not the cart was protected by freedom of expression or whether there would be grounds for further trial. Nobody is in trouble yet.

Isn't it convenient how all posts that say something that rhymes with "You can get in trouble in EU country X for just doing Y." The "just" is doing a lot of concealed lifting? None of your three links actually support your assertion.


(1) Calling a politician a dick is vandalism? That's nonsense.

(2) The corresponding prosecutor made clear that his house was raided for calling the politician stupid and NOT for anything else. You would have known that if you would have read the document I linked to. To quote it:

  Wegen des Tatverdachts einer gegen Personen des politischen Lebens gerichteten
  Beleidigung gem. §§ 185, 188, 194 StGB erfolgte am vergangenen Dienstag, 12.11.2024, eine
  richterlich angeordnete Durchsuchung der Wohnung des Beschuldigten durch Polizeibeamte
  der Kriminalpolizei Schweinfurt
Translated to english:

  Due to suspicion of an offence of insulting persons in political life
  pursuant to Sections 185, 188, 194 of the German Criminal Code (StGB), a
  judicially ordered search of the accused's apartment was carried out last Tuesday, November 12, 2024, by police officers
  from the Schweinfurt Criminal Investigation Department.
(3) He is in trouble in terms that there is an police investigation against him and no it is not okay to have police investigations just because a person expressed his worries about migration.

So, yes my links support my assertion.


People will lie in your face about number two even though both the Amtsgericht Bamberg as well as the press have been saying that the arrest was made in a case of 188 StgB for months now.

(1) - there's a photo of a graffiti in the article. But the translation of the article to English doesn't mention the insult was actually painted on a wall...

(1) That is just a symbolic image. The person answered „Du bist so 1 Pimmel“ (english: „You're such a dick“) to a post of the politician on twitter.

According to Wikipedia it was an answer to the following tweet https://twitter.com/AndyGrote/status/1399001436973899780


First article, second paragraph states that the search was ruled illegal.

The one who got in trouble was ultimately the dick, not the one who called him that....


Getting your house raided is trouble/punishment... So no the one that called him a dick also got into trouble.. and obviously such events discourage people from expressing their opinions.

> Also points out that there were posts of holocaust denial, which has been illegal in most of europe for literal decades.

The arrest wasn't made for this but for the insulting of a politican. Stop lying. The press has been correcting this case for months.


Porn (now requires age verification), online libraries, movies, some news websites, sports (because of obscure copyright laws) and countless other things.

I’m in the EU and haven’t encountered any of these, except the copyright restrictions - which is really a different matter.

I'm in the UK and can't access https://imgur.com/ - an American service that now refuses to serve content to Britain because "On September 30, 2025, Imgur blocked users from the United Kingdom in response to a potential fine from the Information Commissioner's Office regarding its handling of children's personal data". I presume that means OSA.

It does lend credibility to the blocks when it's US companies trying to dodge fines while mishandling PII. The suggestion of using a US freedom gov to dodge US-based self-censorship is as ironic as it is stupid when the real solution is pay the fine and handle the data properly.


Why would Imgur cave in and pay the fine when it's easier to block UK users? This is political battle for you to fight or sooner than later all you will be able to access is BBC state propaganda.

if you are in Germany, try opening ria.ru. It’s not like we are deprived of something worthy - it is Russian propaganda after all, but it tells enough about freedom of speech.

With the German border maybe 10 minutes to the east of me, I can open that website just fine. Seems like an exclusively German problem, not a European one.

I don't think foreign propaganda was ever exempt from freedom of speech here in Europe (except the countries and regimes which lacked free speech, of course), it just wasn't much of a problem before the internet made opinions so easy to broadcast.


Unfortunately EU is now developing practice of extrajudicial sanctions on EU and national level, targeting both media and individuals expressing points of views alternative to position of Brussels or Berlin. Vance was surprisingly right back then in Munich.

It’s not just Russian propaganda, but now it is conveniently used as a blanket cover to sanction even EU citizens (see case of German journalist Hüseyin Doğru, whose only connection to Russia was a hosting of his pro-Palestinian outlet on a platform affiliated with RT).


These are very broad generalizations and accusations based on very few individual cases, each of which has its own specific context. And "expressing points of view alternative to position of Brussels and Berlin" sounds like typical propaganda nonsense. Vance couldn't be further from truth, and his remarks sound even more ridiculous in the light of what's happening on US soil.

Do you have any specific argument about why that specific context matters and how it can justify violation of basic human rights? or it is just a dismissal with „broad generalization“?

I'm in Czechia, next to Germany. Just opened Ria Novosti and Russia Today in two other tabs, nothing blocked here.

I am. It just opens. But I can't read russian ^^

Looks like German firewall has more holes than Russian or Chinese one. Are you using VPN? It’s still blocked for me.

Germany uses DNS blocks.. So you can circumvent the censorship by using a DNS provider different than the DNS provider of your ISP.

There is no such thing like a German firewall.

Works for me.

Ooooh, if freedom.gov helped bypass copyrights on sports and streaming websites, that would be fantastic!

True American freedom requires free NFL for all

This is another "in Europe" thing. There's no "in Europe". Germany, Italy, Poland, Portugal, etc. will all have different rules.

Spaniard here. No, we don't. Every country has different laws. The European Union share some laws but not these.

LaLiga?

Malversation.

A major porn site's reaction to France requiring age verification was quite funny, they replaced their content by complaints instead of implementing the verification. Liberty isn't always a good thing, allowing teens to simply click to say they're adults doesn't cut it.

List please. Surely there is a wiki page you can drop a link to, right?


its wild to me how so much of online america has been radicalized into becoming nothing more that digital curtain twitchers

Russia Today is banned, for one

You mean the TV station lost broadcasting-rights, or you mean the website it actually banned? Cause the website is certainly accessible for me from my European country, although that does not rule out that it is banned in some European countries.

The website rt.com is banned in the whole EU due to a decret by von der Leyen which bypassed parliament. It's trivial to bypass since it's "only" a DNS block but it's still censorship (no matter how you think about the content of RT). Same for Sputnik and the relevant TV channels.

That’s a complete lie. I’m in Germany and can access rt.com perfectly fine

No, it is not. I'm also german and rt.com is DNS blocked by the Telekom.

  dig @192.168.2.1 rt.com
  
  ; <<>> DiG 9.18.39-0ubuntu0.24.04.2-Ubuntu <<>> @192.168.2.1 rt.com
  ; (1 server found)
  ;; global options: +cmd
  ;; Got answer:
  ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 64757
  ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1

  ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION:
  ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 512
  ;; QUESTION SECTION:
  ;rt.com.    IN A
  
  ;; Query time: 30 msec
  ;; SERVER: 192.168.2.1#53(192.168.2.1) (UDP)
  ;; WHEN: Fri Feb 20 09:17:58 UTC 2026
  ;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 35

It's a per country thing as the EU is not 1 country.

In Italy for example RT website is blocked.


Why do you accuse me of lying when you can literally google it and the decret that got passed? Not every ISP seems to participate (if you'd googled it you find news articles complaining that it isn't censor enoughed ironically: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/30/business/media/russia-rt-...).

EDIT: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...


you're right, I apologize for the knee-jerk reaction. I completely forgot my router doesn't use my ISP DNS. Thanks for the calm response and links, even after my inflammatory comment. Unfortunately I cannot edit or delete it anymore

It's ok, it's a heated topic. Kudos for apologizing :)

No it isn't. t. EU citizen.

It is, see the other comment. t. also EU citizen

rt.com works fine in Finland at least. I don't think we have website bans in general aside something like CSAM and copyright reasons, and even the latter at least is rare.

There seems to be a manufactured narrative from the US right how "Europe" is somehow doing large scale censorship.


rt.com loads just fine for me. If you want to do research into/get brainwashed by Russian propaganda, nothing is stopping you here.

I'm in Germany and rt.com does not resolve for me. If I use a VPN and access via, say Austria, it does work.

That seems crazy to me I read news there occasionally as I like to view opposite sides. Go to BBC, RT, France24 ,Al-Jazeera type sites and see what each has as their focus stories.

You're aware news sites are used to push agenda, some more than others, but that's half the interest of seeing what they push. And sometimes the more fringe have stories on what should be news but don't make it to mainstream media channels.

...anyway I'm more a believer in assuming people have a brain and can figure stuff out vs banning sites, both have danger to them but censorship seems the bigger danger to me.


True! Though I can't really say I mourn the loss, it is a Russian propaganda outlet dedicated to helping their expansion war. Is this the speech the USA is going to protect? It's still weird to me that the gringoes are helping the commies now, I guess I'm stuck in the old world order!

This site claims to list them out: https://eylenburg.github.io/countries.htm

I cannot vouch for its accuracy but I thought it was interesting.


One is Russian media, just as Russia bans European media.

Also the world's largest library is banned in Germany.


Piracy is illegal in most countries. Unless you mean the American Library of Congress, but that's an American decision, not a European one.

The first one I'm ok with, the second one I'm not sure what you're saying? Google suggests the largest library in the world is the US Congress library, but I couldn't find any sources saying it's banned in Germany? (Also, it's a physical place in the US... What?)

Closest thing I could find to library banned in Germany was a collection of pirated material, which was blocked at a DNS level, meaning many users bypass the ban accidentally, and anyone who wants to can trivially use a different DNS.

I mean I'm probably more in favour of digital piracy than the next guy, but I had completely missed that were calling copyright protection censorship now?


Yes, I'm referring to the pirate site, which is the largest collection of books in the history of mankind. Of course it is a bit fringe to talk about censorship when it comes to piracy, but I would say that it is. While noting that the US also censors pirate websites.

He probably means a famous pirating site, called library dot something.


Can we filter for current censorship? Hate to brake it to you but the top category in that page, "censorship in the soviet union" does not apply anymore.....

Spain

1) Catalan Referendum Website Seizures (2017)

Spanish courts ordered ISPs to block dozens of pro-independence domains and mirror sites during the referendum. Civil Guard units physically entered data centers to seize servers tied to the Catalan government’s digital voting infrastructure.

2) GitHub Repository Takedown (2017)

Spain obtained a court order forcing GitHub to remove a repository that mirrored referendum voting code and site information, extending censorship beyond Spanish-hosted domains.

3) Rapper Convictions for Online Lyrics

Spanish rapper Valtònyc was convicted for tweets and lyrics deemed to glorify terrorism and insult the monarchy; he fled the country and fought extradition in Belgium for years.

France

4) Blocking of Protest Pages During Yellow Vests (2018–2019)

Authorities requested removals of Facebook pages and livestreams tied to the Yellow Vest protests, citing incitement and public order concerns.

5) Court-Ordered Removal of Election Content (2019 EU Elections)

French judges used expedited procedures under election-period misinformation law to order removal of allegedly false political claims within 48 hours.

6) Prosecution of Political Satire as Hate Speech

Several activists were fined or prosecuted for online posts targeting religious or ethnic groups in explicitly political contexts, even where framed as satire.

Germany

7) Mass Police Raids Over Social Media Posts

German police have conducted coordinated nationwide dawn raids targeting individuals accused of posting illegal political speech under hate-speech laws.

8) Removal of Opposition Content Under NetzDG

Platforms removed thousands of posts from nationalist or anti-immigration political actors within 24 hours to avoid heavy fines under NetzDG enforcement pressure.

9) Criminal Convictions for Holocaust Commentary Online

Individuals have received criminal penalties for online statements denying or relativizing Nazi crimes, even when framed in broader political debate contexts.

United Kingdom

10) Police Visits Over Controversial Tweets

British police have conducted “non-crime hate incident” visits to individuals’ homes over political tweets, creating official records despite no prosecution.

11) Arrests for Offensive Political Posts

Individuals have been arrested under public communications laws for posts criticizing immigration or religion in strongly worded terms.

12) Removal of Campaign Content Under Electoral Rules

Election regulators required digital platforms to remove or restrict political ads that failed to meet transparency requirements during active campaigns.

Italy

13) Enforcement of “Par Condicio” Silence Online

During mandated pre-election silence periods, online political content—including posts by candidates—has been ordered removed or fined.

14) Criminal Defamation Charges Against Bloggers

Italian bloggers critical of politicians have faced criminal defamation prosecutions for investigative posts during election cycles.

Finland

15) Conviction of Sitting MP for Facebook Posts

Finnish MP Päivi Räsänen was prosecuted for Bible-based comments posted online regarding sexuality and religion; although ultimately acquitted, the criminal process itself was lengthy and high-profile.

Sweden

16) Convictions for Anti-Immigration Facebook Posts

Swedish courts have convicted individuals for Facebook comments criticizing immigration policy when deemed “agitation against a population group.”

Netherlands

17) Criminal Case Against Opposition Politician

Dutch politician Geert Wilders was convicted (without penalty) for campaign-rally remarks later amplified online, deemed discriminatory.

Austria

18) Rapid Court Orders Against Political Posts

Austria’s updated online hate-speech regime enabled expedited court orders compelling removal of allegedly unlawful political speech within days.

Belgium

19) Prosecution of Political Party Messaging

Members of the Vlaams Belang party have faced legal sanctions for campaign messaging shared online deemed racist or discriminatory.

Switzerland

20) Criminal Fines for Referendum Campaign Speech

Swiss activists have faced criminal fines for online referendum messaging judged to violate anti-discrimination law during highly contentious votes.


Can you filter the ones that aren't obviously harmless like laws banning Nazi salutes or agitating violence against people based on race?

See, the problem is, "obviously harmless" varies by person: if you think it is obviously harmless to ban an entire political party, which ostensibly won a legitimate election, and certainly had a lot of popular support... well then, of course we should also ban whichever current political party you consider most evil, right? And then the next most evil political party, and so on, until people have the freedom that comes from knowing only Good, Proper, State-Sanctioned Political Parties exist!

And of course, once it's illegal to agitate against violence, we just have to redefine violence: for instance, posting about Nazis puts them in danger, and they're all white, so clearly you're a racist for opposing Nazis.

These aren't hypothetical examples: the people defending Free Speech have watched these slippery slopes get pulled out again and again. Misgendering a trans person is a "hate crime", reporting on the location of gestapo agents is "inciting violence", protesting against the state is "terrorism"

And fundamentally, this is a lever that gets wielded by whoever is in power: even if you agree with the Left censoring Nazi salutes, are you equally comfortable with the Right censoring child mutilation sites (also known as "Trans resources")?

SURELY "child mutilation" is "obviously harmless" to ban, right?


Child mutilation is obviously harmless to ban of course. Though calling trans resources that is equally obviously disingenuous.

Maybe Americans should take a break from criticizing the EU and fix their own shit first. It's incredibly frustrating to constantly see far right goons swing around "freedom of speech" as if that term hasn't been a fig leaf for ages. In the US, if you do something that the powers that be dislike that is covered by freedom of speech, they'll manufacture something else to hit you with. At least here in the EU, when you get investigated for something that freedom of expression covers, you'll at least get acquitted eventually.


I think part of this is preempting concerns that the EU could ban or limit X / Twitter.

They've already fined X heavily for lacking transparency, like not providing a database of advertisers or allowing researchers to access internal data to evaluate misinformation concerns. The EU has threatened that if they need to they may ban or limit X.

Musk and conservatives view X as a critical tool to spread their preferred ideology, and Musk has shown he's not beyond algorithmic and UX manipulation to achieve desired outcomes.


There's a hate speech / violence law in the UK that is getting some people arrested for saying things like "round up all people of race X, put them into a hotel, and burn the hotel down." People like Joe Rogan and his ilk are re-packaging those examples as "people being arrested for just sharing their opinion."

I don't know what Joe Rogan says or who his ilk are, but this is a pretty extreme characterization of the situation that I don't think is accurate.

For example, UK police track what they consider to be undesirable "non-crime" speech, build databases of people, and intimidate them for these non crimes (knock on their doors, invite them to come to police station, advise them not to say such things, etc). This is quite a new thing, within the past ~10 years.

There have also been other high profile cases of people being arrested for posting things that were not like that burn the hotel down case. They arrested 12,000 people in 2023 and convicted 1,100 of those. For cases where the evidence is as cut and dried as posts made online, they could only secure convictions in 8% of cases, which seems staggering to me when UK's conviction rate generally is like 80%.

Even the conviction rate, even if you say yes there are laws to prohibit certain speech, how far is too far? Are these kinds of laws and convictions needed? Why don't all other countries need them? Why didn't UK need them 20 years ago when there was still internet and social media? Is it not concerning to you that we're told this kind of action is required to hold society together? I'm not saying that calls to violence don't happen or should be tolerated, but if it is not a lie that arresting thousands of people for twitter posts and things is necessary to keep society from breaking down then it seems like putting a bandaid on top of a volcano. It's certainly not developing a resilient, anti-fragile society, quite the opposite IMO.

Is nobody allowed to be concerned about any of this without being some horrible underground extremist, in your opinion?


Damn I keep forgetting the UK is still located in Europe. Ever since they left the union they feel like their own continent.

Actually they feel like they might secretly be the fifty first state!


> They arrested 12,000 people in 2023 and convicted 1,100 of those. For cases where the evidence is as cut and dried as posts made online, they could only secure convictions in 8% of cases, which seems staggering to me when UK's conviction rate generally is like 80%.

Isn't the conviction rate the number of people convicted divided by the number charged, not the number arrested?


> There have also been other high profile cases of people being arrested for posting things that were not like that burn the hotel down case

Such as?

> Is nobody allowed to be concerned about any of this without being some horrible underground extremist, in your opinion?

Horrible underground extremist? Not so much. More likely just someone who consumes a very particular slice of media that puts a dishonest (at best) spin on situations like this.


> > There have also been other high profile cases of people being arrested for posting things that were not like that burn the hotel down case

> Such as?

That was the only thing in my comment you took issue with? Great, that's easy to clear up because there's a few around. Here's one

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/yorkshire-man-a...

Arrested for saying "F--- Palestine. F--- Hamas. F--- Islam. Want to protest? F--- off to Muslim country and protest."

> Horrible underground extremist? Not so much. More likely just someone who consumes a very particular slice of media that puts a dishonest (at best) spin on situations like this.

Hmm. Was your previous post a dishonest (at best) spin on it too? That would be consistent with your claim if you are a consumer of a very particular slice of media and did not know you can find articles from a whole range of publications about this stuff easily on the internet.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jan/19/arresting-pa...

https://www.forbes.com.au/news/world-news/people-are-being-t...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2922w73e1o (Online speech laws need to be reviewed after Linehan arrest, says Streeting)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/2/13/uk-decision-to-ban-...

https://www.politico.eu/article/freedom-speech-suspicion-bri...

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/10/world/europe/graham-lineh...

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/palestine-action-ruling...

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/03/uk/uk-farage-free-speech-...

https://www.fire.org/news/uk-government-issues-warning-think...

https://www.foxnews.com/world/shocking-cases-reveal-britains...

You really don't need to be some obscure basement dweller to have any kind of vague inkling that something might be a little on the nose in the proverbial state of Denmark.


The key thing to understand is that Europeans want clear rules around hate speech, online harassment and such. Thus lawmakers are acting to find laws which encapsulate these. In Germany, we have some simple ones surrounding using Nazi symbols and speech. These rules generally work well in our civil law context. Civil law usually is rather broad strokes and there might be cases where something injust happens which requires tuning laws.

If you come from a common law context the whole idea might seem strange.


> The key thing to understand is that Europeans want clear rules around hate speech

Regardless of my personal thoughts on this (complicated), simply putting "many" in front of "Europeans" does a lot to diminish further alienation of those who don't, helping you achieve your goals. It takes 0.5 seconds.


Agreed

> The key thing to understand is that Europeans want clear rules around hate speech, online harassment and such.

Do they? Or is it being pushed upon them? And why is it "the key thing" here?

> Thus lawmakers are acting to find laws which encapsulate these.

I suspect it has been the reverse, the ruling class desperately wants those powers and if the common people are now in favor of them it is more than likely because of intensive campaigns from their governments and corporations to change their minds.

> In Germany, we have some simple ones surrounding using Nazi symbols and speech. These rules generally work well in our civil law context. Civil law usually is rather broad strokes and there might be cases where something injust happens which requires tuning laws.

Some laws existing does not mean some other laws won't be unjust. Or that legislated laws will always be right and not require "some tuning".

> If you come from a common law context the whole idea might seem strange.

The different systems of law don't seem all that strange to me at least, but the thread you are replying to is discussing censorship in the European nation of the UK.

Further, what we are discussing involves executive police powers (intimidation, arrests, compiling lists), as well as legislated laws, so it is not really just some quirk of common law at all.


I think if you come from a German context the concept of free speech is probably strange to you in general - because no one in living memory has ever had it. Not in Weimar, not in the Nazi period, not in East Germany and not in the Federal Republic.

Unless you understand concepts like "Natural Rights" the idea of a government not being able to curtail what you say will remain completely foreign to you.


That isn't really what we perceive (at least if educated). We see that Free Speech is not an absolute right, but is secondary to the most important right which for Germans is Human Dignity. It might be foreign to you because your constitution and history doesn't put the same value on it than our history taught us.

I'm not American but I similarly don't care for the meek subservience to the government which characterizes European attitude on this.

Human dignity is not foreign to me at all, I just don't believe a life where the state protects your feelings from words, and that dictates what you may and may not talk about is not a dignified one.


It is often easy to assume this position if you are majority, white, employed, etc.

Your argument is similar to saying that we shouldn't have rules when driving cars. "Why life cannot be dignified if I have to observe stop signs."

In every are of life there are balances to be struck. I am sure your country has rules for slandering individuals (because most have). What's the difference to also having rules against slandering entire people?


> It is often easy to assume this position if you are majority, white, employed, etc.

What is your evidence to that claim?

I think it is actually not easy to assume that position, as evidenced by vast numbers of Europeans who do not assume that position. I think that it is in fact far easier (as a majority, white, employed, etc.), to go through life believing your government will solve everything and protect your feelings from being hurt by hearing what other people think. I just think it is an undignified existence.

> Your argument is similar to saying that we shouldn't have rules when driving cars. "Why life cannot be dignified if I have to observe stop signs."

I can see how bewildering this is for you, but my "argument" is also quite different in important ways.

> In every are of life there are balances to be struck. I am sure your country has rules for slandering individuals (because most have).

Adjudicating disputes between private parties is clearly one of the real roles of government.

> What's the difference to also having rules against slandering entire people?

I'm not sure if you are being rhetorical and actually want me to list the differences because you are unaware of them? Civil actions brought by private parties are different from government censorship and criminalization of speech. And I can be sued in civil court for what I say, I never said or even hinted that this should be disallowed that seems to be a strawman you have made up.

I don't think it should be easy to be found liable for damage if you tell the truth or give your opinion though.

What about you? Do you think calling AfD voters in general racists or extremists or selfish or xenophobic should be censored and criminalized by your government?


How could German history have taught you anything about human dignity?

You went from a military dictatorship to an unstable republic to a fascist state, then you split into military occupation zones, and then one of your military occupation zones annexed the other, the militaries left but you kept the laws, and now you arrest people for saying "from the river to the sea".

Using your German-ness to talk to anyone else about freedom or human dignity is patently ridiculous. If you have an ideological point to make, make it, but the whole "as a German" angle just does not hold water. "As a German" your history shows you don't understand this.

Your concept of Freedom of Speech is much closer to the Mainland Chinese model than an Anglo one.


A little less hyperbole would maybe help your arguments, but trying to argue that one of the most liberal democracies in the world is comparable to one of the most repressive regimes is hurting your argument (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/liberal-democracy-index).

Nobody is perfect, but Germans have learned a lot in the last century and a half. One of the things is that Freedom of Speech doesn't deserve the pedestal that primarily US Americans put it on. It has boundaries and one of those is calling for the displacement of an entire nation.

You make it sound like that Germany is just a puppet without its own mind, but in reality it is just some 80m people all with their own mind, history and education. The reality is that Germans are more aware of their history and the impact seemingly small decisions can have on the life of millions. That's why I talk about the German-ness, because many other countries can't or don't want to understand the weight of responsibility which arises from being the perpetrator of two world wars and the holocaust.


This is a textbook case of German Schuldstolz - you feel having been militaristic and having mass human right abuses entitles you to lecture others.

All you learned in the last centuries and a half is that you dont have the logistics to fight massive wars. You did not abandon anything due to your own enlightenment, you abandoned it because of massive foreign military interventions, where every single one of your newspaper, radio and television stations were replaced by your military occupiers.

The worst part about your Schuldstolz is that... the regime who did the most to end yours was even less moral and killed even more people than your own. Meaning you aren't even the best at being awful.

So no, I do not care what you have to see about freedom "as a German". You were militarily, ideologically and mentally conquered. Lecturing Anglos is this is just reflecing back our own beliefs but distorted with a German mindset that has no history or tradition of freedom of speech.


> Schuldstolz

Never heard that word before. And I don't think I am lecturing you about something you should do. I was just talking about why Germans in their own free country are choosing to make decisions about their own laws.

If you feel like we are missing something about freedom of speech, that's fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion. What is strange to me is that Americans (and you as somebody from NZ) are starting to lecture us on that we are being censored by our government. Which in itself is ridiculous and even when explaining why we are preferring the rules we have, we get attacked for it.

Germans aren't mentally conquered, this is just bullshit. We have the same freedom to think what we want as all other Europeans. Things are also evolving, the second world war is so long ago, that very few Europeans were first hand involved. What we considered American values (I don't think the Anglo sphere is very united in these) has also rapidly changed. Americans no longer believe in multi-lateralism and shared values, so not sure what reflection you are alluding to.

Your views on the war are also not very informed. West Germany and East Germany were vastly differently handled by the occupation forces. While for East Germany your talking points of a total replacement it true, in West Germany many of the old elites had to be put back in power to aid the western allies in propping up Germany against the Russians. It took a lot of counter culture to fight those brown remains.

Last, I don't know where you take the energy and insights to say that we have no history of XYZ, but it just isn't true.


Oh, is that what y'all are on about? I'm not too worried then. About Europe.


Damn I didn't know this. I have been joking that Denmark should rename Greenland to Poland, cause wouldn't it be funny if ww3 started with the US invading Poland?

Apparently my somewhat forced attempt to liken Donald to Adolf has been outdone by reality.


Why would other countries go to war?

The NATO Pact, established in 1949, is a collective defense agreement where an attack on one member is considered an attack on all.

Even an attack by one of its own members that's its leading military and financial force?

Yes, in fact that would be the most important time to follow through with that agreement from the position of the other members.


Collective defense aka casus foederis as defined by Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

Even an attack by one of its own members that's its leading military and financial force?

Absolutely. Yes.

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