I'm not talking past you, your crowd generally talk past me with "it's fine - works for me - just wear headphones - actually it's a benefit", etc.

In my own experience - I've known a few people who were genuinely better at their development work in open environments. Better as in measured output vs what they thought of themselves. They felt better - they liked the atmosphere - but they also thought they did good work, when they weren't doing terribly good work. Was it causal? Probably not, but it more proves the point that it's harder to self-assess beyond emotional state (which, really, IS a component of work life - I get that).

But what also happens with these religious wars is that the few anecdotes of "hey - I ENJOY working in open plan areas" is used to justify it for everyone.

You want open with other people - that should be allowed. You want an office with a door to shut to work? That should be allowed too. You want to switch between the two - that should be allowed and it EXTREMELY RARE.

Essentially, without loud 'anti' open office plan voices, the 'hey, this is cheaper' crowd gets its way. And when they can find a small percentage of people who do work well in that environment, it's justification-icing on the decision cake.

You're paying a team of people... say, $500k per year - spend the extra few percent and get an office that can accommodate multiple working styles to have the best possible places for all types of people to work. The larger world tends to default to the benefit of extroverts, and 'open plan offices' is one more 'default' that needs to be challenged, especially for many knowledge workers.

In every place I've been with open plans or open cube farms - management NEVER sat there - always had private offices. There's an acknowledgement that it's useful for some type of work, and you're not it. Incredibly divisive attitude for a 'team' to have to put up with. And... for every one example of "but... famous person X sits in an open plan with the team" there are hundreds who don't - it's not the norm.

"No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat."

MOST companies are because it saves a few bucks. The costs may be non trivial, but the cost compared the salaries, benefits and lost productivity generally are trivial.

> "In my own experience - I've known a few people who were genuinely better at their development work in open environments. Better as in measured output vs what they thought of themselves. They felt better - they liked the atmosphere - but they also thought they did good work, when they weren't doing terribly good work."

See the part of my original post: "Every single argument boils down to "there's simply no way you've had a positive experience, your experience was actually negative but you're too dumb to know it""

You're doing it right now. I'm not prescribing open-plan offices on you, so don't prescribe yours onto me. Furthermore, this blind assertion "people who like open plan are actually more productive in private offices" has a gigantic "citation needed" on it. It is a universal assertion every time it comes up, yet is NEVER substantiated.

> ""hey - I ENJOY working in open plan areas" is used to justify it for everyone."

Except no one here is doing this. You're setting up a straw man and declaring gleeful victory knocking down a stance no one in this thread has advocated.

Look at what others are saying:

"I understand why open floorplans don't work for some people but I personally enjoy working in one..."

"Open floorplans are fine so long as there's an alternative option available."

"We had private rooms too, and many engineers preferred working in quiet, but I'm glad it wasn't all private offices."

No one here is prescribing open floor plans on you, but you have spent many replies in this thread behaving as if they are, and prescribing private offices onto them by insisting that you know their productivity better than they do.

You have spent this entire thread accusing people of forcing their preferences onto you, but it would appear in actuality it's the reverse.

"Except no one here is doing this. "

They do it at companies I've worked at.

Some of those comments weren't in place when I originally commented.

Yes, not everyone here is advocating that. It's one of the few hot-button issues for me, and it still feels like 'moderate' tones get used to justify herding people in to open plans to save a few bucks.

I'm not accusing people in this thread of doing that - I'm saying it happens a lot on the outside, and the voices of moderation - the types expressed in this thread - get used by non-programmers to justify open plans. Perhaps I didn't clarify that, or perhaps it's a distinction without a difference.

I agree. This is a largely a subjective question. What you like, what makes you productive and what you feel makes you productive all play a part and are all pretty subjective.

I think people feel like because it's work related it is and must be objective. Measurable and provably better for all involved. It gets very transparent when you hear the reasoning behind very senior people's large expensive offices. There's always some pseudo rational justification.

I'm not saying that environment doesn't affect productivity. I'm saying I don't think that's what is enflaming passions. I see office environments as a form of consumption. Our standards for homes and cars and phones have gone up. Why not office chairs and square footage? Thinking of it that way naturally lends to subjectivity. What you like is supposed to be subjective.

Separate reply from before:

"I derive energy from other people working around me."

That's great and all, but what effect does it have on the others around you. It's a rather self-centered view (almost by definition!) but.. "I derive... around me". It may be extremely draining on the people around you, but if it's OK because you get something from it, that makes it fine?

I'm projecting here, certainly, but the whole statement about what works for you bothers me. I've seen more teams be under-productive in open floor plans compared to similar teams that have the options of shared and private workspaces. Is the floor plan the only factor? Probably not, but it's certainly one that was very noticeable. Perhaps it's just symptomatic of something larger?

Please excuse the bluntness that follows - I am genuinely frustrated by your attitude. This is my final reply with you on this matter, because frankly your behavior doesn't deserve any more time, and this is putting a bigger dent in my productivity today than any office environment-related concerns.

In this thread you have accused myself, and others, of prescribing our preferences to you. We have not, in fact you have done the reverse to us.

In this thread you have accused myself, and others, of being selfish when in fact we advocate for people to work in any environment that best suits them.

In this thread you have insisted that you know our (none of whom you've ever met) productivity better than we do ourselves.

In this thread you have presumed that we work in environments where we are disrespectful of our peers. Speaking only for myself, that cannot be further from the truth. Around here we have discussed candidly what works for people and what does not, offer alternatives to people who do not want open environments, and we continue to encourage people to speak up on any issues relating to the work environment, whether it's productivity-related or simply related to their enjoyment (believe it or not, not all open-plan-preferring people work best in just any open-plan setup). We are fully cognizant that different people work better in different environments, and we offer that freedom to everyone.

You have falsely accused many of us the same disrespect you have shown us. You have falsely accused us of projecting and prescribing, when the only one doing the projecting and prescribing is you.

You are looking for a Big Bad Guy so hard it borders on the absurd. You have approached anyone here even slightly pro-open-plan with hostility and condescension when no attitude has been shown to you.

We get it, you've had bad experiences at previous companies re: open-plan. Don't take it out on us. Neither myself nor anyone who has commented here is responsible for your past experiences, and none of us take anything close to the stance you have previously experienced. So don't treat us like it.

I acknowledged I'm likely projecting some of this. That you or others took some of this personally is odd - I thought I was pretty clear in indicating that these were my own experiences. Outside of that, apologies for the one dig at you specifically about your 'deriving energy' comment - my reply was worded correctly, and certainly came across differently than I intended.

Agreed on dropping this - not intending to cause offense - I also suspect that if this was a face to face conversation we'd have agreed more than disagreed (as has happened when this has come up at user group meetings in the area now and then).