Also, to the extent that it's hard to start a business because of government regulation (which is a large extent), the obvious response is to remove the regulations that make it hard to start a business. That would mean more people starting businesses, hence more new jobs available for other people who are currently out of work. Funny how the Reuters article doesn't mention that.

That's circular reasoning where this thread is concerned. People are saying here that corporations should be sharing the upside with employees. You are saying that since they are not, people should start businesses. You're changing the subject and giving the corporations a pass.

>to the extent that it's hard to start a business because of government regulation (which is a large extent), the obvious response is to remove the regulations that make it hard to start a business.

Sorry about the delay. Took me a while to wipe the vomit from keyboard.

Seriously, while these regulatory complaints are something that we tend to hear from people with certain political affiliations, I challenge you to cite references to actual regulations that are to any "large extent" preventing actual small businesses from starting. In fact, the implication in the Reuter's article is that businesses are doing just fine in the current regulatory environment. They are more profitable than ever at the expense of the worker.

And, I think the HN populace exemplifies the actual difficulty in starting successful businesses. I doubt many here will cite regulations as a key challenge. Instead, it's actual business problems, such as product development, finding market-fit, competition, marketing, lack of capital, inability to scale, etc.

Not nice.

That's part of what I'm saying, but not all. Another part of what I'm saying is that, if the premise is that current corporations are not sharing enough upside with employees, then one obvious response is to start a business that does share upside with employees. If that's really as big a deal as people are claiming, employees should flock to such a business. Only some of those who are now dissatisfied would actually have to start such businesses; the rest could simply choose to work for them because they treat employees better.

I challenge you to cite references to actual regulations that are to any "large extent" preventing actual small businesses from starting.

First of all, it's not just starting but growing businesses that should be less impeded by regulation. Sure, start a business with only a few employees and the burden might not be too bad (depending on what kind of business it is--see below); but hit a fairly small threshold number of employees and all of a sudden you have regulations galore that you have to comply with or a dozen government agencies will come after you.

As for regulatory barriers to starting businesses, here are a few off the top of my head: professional licensing, even for professions like hairdressing where any putative benefit to the customer is far outweighed by the costs of the barrier to entry; zoning laws that clearly go way beyond any public benefit; government sweetheart deals for companies like cable providers, which prevent all kinds of competition in the ISP arena. That's just from a few minutes of brainstorming; I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

the implication in the Reuter's article is that businesses are doing just fine in the current regulatory environment.

That's because they (i.e., existing businesses) paid good money for the current regulatory environment. That does not at all imply that said environment is good for potential competitors of those existing businesses; if it were, they'd be complaining to their politicians that they weren't getting their money's worth.

I doubt many here will cite regulations as a key challenge. Instead, it's actual business problems, such as product development, finding market-fit, competition, marketing, lack of capital, inability to scale, etc.

But all of these business problems are also faced by existing businesses. Markets are not static; a product-market fit that worked fine yesterday might not work fine today, and businesses that serve their customers well often have to reinvent themselves. The response of many existing businesses (the music and movie industries being two outstanding examples), instead of reinventing themselves, is to try to outlaw their competition. The fact that those businesses continue to make profits even though there are obvious ways in which they are not serving their customers well (let alone their employees) indicates that their political efforts to get the playing field tilted in their favor have been successful.

That's fine. But, what I'm saying is that's where you're effectively changing the subject. That is, it still doesn't speak to the current treatment of employees at corporations that employ millions of workers right now, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. So, why let them off the hook? It just comes off as a disingenuous red herring to suggest that the remedy is for folks to go out and start new businesses. We know that it's extremely difficult for any individual business to succeed for a variety of reasons. Yet, what you're saying is that to remedy this problem, many, many new businesses must do so in significant numbers. I'm an idealist, but that's just not realistic--particularly in the near future.

And, I read at least a tinge of disdain for workers implied in your comments, especially given the current environment that has seen more than its share of Ayn Rand talk and hostility aimed at workers. The sentiment comes off as one of "be happy with what you get, and if you don't like the way you're treated, then start your own business".

>it's not just starting but growing businesses that should be less impeded by regulation

Yeah, I was simply responding to what you'd written re: starting a business, but agreed that regulations pose some hurdle at all phases. I run a business. You're not going to hear me cheer-leading in favor of the current regulatory environment. I don't like it either, but it's not my biggest problem by miles. I'm sure it varies by industry type, and I agree with those that you listed. But, the decrying of regulations has generally been overblown, political buzz-wording in an effort to promote a particular agenda.

So, here we have to distinguish between small businesses and major corporations. When you hear the political-speak decrying regulations it's generally a tactic to use small-businesess as cover for large corporations. "There's too much regulation and it's killing our small businesses", which is cover for "abolish environmental protections, consumer protections, financial market protections, etc. so corporations can realize even more profit".

So, the term "over-regulated" comes fully-loaded. And, that's what makes me wretch.

Where we do intersect is in acknowledgment of the tilted playing field and pay-to-play political environment/markets. Whether it's through manipulation of the regulatory environment, ridiculous subsidies, or any multitude of tools, this obviously hurts the market, workers, and everyone--except of course, those who have the deepest pockets.

How does encouraging people to start competing businesses that treat employees better count as letting existing corporations off the hook?

Also, what alternative remedies would you propose? As far as I can tell from other comments in this thread (not yours), the main remedy appears to be to complain really loudly. If it's not realistic to expect lots of people to start new businesses, it's even less realistic, IMO, to expect complaining really loudly to make a significant difference.

I read at least a tinge of disdain for workers implied in your comment

Not disdain, just a reality check. I completely agree that workers at a lot of existing corporations should be dissatisfied with the way they are being treated. But I don't see much potential for change in just complaining about it. What these corporations need is competition.

here we have to distinguish between small businesses and major corporations.

Yes, this is a good point. However, I would offer a slightly different take on it. Small businesses, in my experience (a friend of mine runs one), just want to do business; they don't have the time or the resources or the inclination to expend effort in non-productive activities like playing political games. (That's one reason I think society as a whole would be better off if the average size of a business were considerably smaller than it is now.) The major corporations are the ones buying the regulations. But that means that much of the "protection" that we as consumers are supposedly getting from those regulations is illusory.

For example, lots of people claim that the financial crisis in 2008 was the result of lack of regulation of the financial markets. But if you look at what actually went on, there was plenty of regulation; it was just regulation that the major investment banks had written to favor themselves, rather than regulation that was written to actually protect the average person from having their retirement savings invested in junk securities that were made to look like AAA securities. As far as I can tell, that situation has not improved at all.

So when I say there should be less regulation, part of the reason is that the regulations we have are useless anyway. Small businesses are too busy doing business to engage in the kinds of shenanigans the regulations are supposed to protect us from; and major corporations can manipulate the regulations so someone else pays the price for the shenanigans anyway. If it were possible to have regulations that really did protect us as they're supposed to, I would be in favor of it; but I don't think we can, at least, not the way our political system currently does it.