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I'm starting to think nostr was barking up the right tree after all. Put as much complexity into the client as possible and make the servers dumb and completely uncoordinated, utterly interchangeable. Spam your broadcasts to any relay that will listen. No idea if it actually works (I've read a lot about nostr and AT proto but never used either of them) but I think it's very obvious that any system that deeply relies on some company that everyone becomes extremely reliant on (including AT proto/Bluesky) is only a couple steps away from the same sort of problems as centralization.

Of course, the real gold standard would be P2P, if only it could work. But... mobile phones can't burn battery running P2P clients in the background, everyone's under a NAT these days, and some types of software (like microblogging networks) would be horrifically intractable as a P2P system.

Oh well. At the very least, I really love the concept of Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs). I'd like to see more stuff like that.




The atproto team came from the p2p space. We had a lot of experience running client-side computation. There are challenges you can try to solve in that design -- key sync, key recovery, reliable hosting, reliable discovery, etc -- but what you can't get around is the need to run queries against aggregations of data. Even scales that we consider "mid" start to strain on the client-driven model. Federated queries might be able to solve it, but it's extremely challenging to get reliable performance out of that. The design we landed on was replaceable big nodes.

The common comparable people raise is email/gmail, but we used the DID system and account portability to try to get a better outcome on provider migration. It's hopefully more like web/google -- which still has the centralizing pressures of scale benefits, but hopefully injects enough fluidity in the system to move the situation forward. Sometimes, you pick the design that moves the ball down the field, not the one that guarantees a touchdown. If somebody wanted to improve on what we've done, I'd tell them to focus on the federated queries problem.


In theory AT proto doesn't seem like a bad design. I've read a fair bit of the docs, although mostly skimming. (I've been meaning to read the paper on Merkle Search Trees so I can figure out what exactly is going on with PDSes.)

On the other hand, in practice it seems like the AT proto infrastructure is still very centralized for now. DIDs are excellent in theory, but everyone is using PLC DIDs, which depends on the centralized plc.directory. You can run your own PDSes, but there's only one relay for now (that I am aware of.) I also don't think there is more than one instance of the Bluesky AppView, and the official instance is locked into the Bluesky Moderation Service, which seems to limit the usefulness of some of the censorship resistance of the protocol.

I'm not sure how much of that is social problems rather than technical, but I worry that since Bluesky and AT proto are gaining massive popularity with this status quo (millions of users!) it'll have a problem akin to Matrix.org, where in practice almost everyone is using the same infrastructure anyways.

It's still relatively early days, but millions of people is definitely enough to where you start to hit problems with having everyone under one roof. I really hope we get to see how things play out when more of the network is operated independently.


The necessary future is more providers, more relays, a move of PLC to an independent body, and more DID methods.

I will also say - there are ~100 self-hosting PDSes in the network, about 25 relay consumers, 3 alternative appviews that I know of (smoke signals, frontpage.fyi, and whitewind), the firehose & backfill are fully available, the specs are getting fairly complete, and the software is open source. This is a priority for us.


fwiw roughly 50% of Matrix is on the matrix.org instance currently. we consider this a bug, but also prioritise ease of onboarding over decentralisation purity ideology.


I hate to be a downer but there's a lot of things Matrix could prioritize over decentralization. That said, the decentralization works pretty badly. Large federated joins are somewhere between comically slow and horrifically slow. Status does not seem to work well across federation either.

I'm also a bit miffed that Dendrite was positioned as a "next generation" Matrix server but now it feels nearly orphaned with missing support for newer features, issues with various appservice bridges, few updates at a very slow pace, and no migration path out in sight. I know it came with a fair number of disclaimers, but that still bums me out as it seemed like it would be okay for a small non-critical homeserver, and now it seems likely I'll have to engineer my own path out when clients finally stop working with Dendrite. (It already happened once...)

You have no idea how bad I want to love Matrix, but frankly if it was due to a focus on usability that decentralization "purity" has suffered, it simply does not show in the resulting usability improvements over years of time. Sorry to be harsh.


I share your feelings. I had switched to Dendrite 1 year ago and its flaws made me open my eyes to the major problems I had with the design of the protocol.

I started to worry that it would not improve and I reexamined XMPP.

Finally I switched to XMPP that I had abandoned more than 5 years ago because I think there is a better chance that the community will finally offer clients with the important features, on all platforms, in the coming year and that it will last over time.


if you feel miffed, imagine how the Dendrite team feels, given the lack of funding which means it is on best-effort dev currently.

if you’re interested in progress on Matrix, https://matrix.org/blog/2024/10/29/matrix-2.0-is-here/ is where it’s at.


I did see the Matrix 2.0 announcement, though for obvious reasons I can't actually use any of the features listed in it. Obviously, improvements to the basic chat functions of Matrix would be great. For now though, I am stuck with the reality that joining a large federated channel sometimes takes more than 6 hours. I wish I were exaggerating.

edit: I guess though that faster room joins weren't a part of Matrix 2.0. Actually, I don't really have a huge problem with the sync taking too long personally. So maybe Matrix 2.0 wouldn't bring that big of an improvement for me anyway.




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