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Wikipedia Is a Source of Political Propaganda (battlepenguin.com)
89 points by pelasaco on Nov 18, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 101 comments



For an example of a biased and probably state-backed Wikipedia editor, see the example of Philip Cross. I very casually edit Wikipedia, a few times a year, and I within an hour of certain changes ran into this "individual". Cross is almost certainly a team of people, and they didn't fully remove my edits, but it was very clear that certain topics are heavily monitored and shaped.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-44495696

> Political analyst and former UK British ambassador Craig Murray described the scale of Cross’s activities:

> Philip Cross” has not had one single day off from editing Wikipedia in almost five years. “He” has edited every single day from 29 August 2013 to 14 May 2018. Including five Christmas Days. That’s 1,721 consecutive days of editing. 133,612 edits to Wikipedia have been made in the name of “Philip Cross” over 14 years. That’s over 30 edits per day, seven days a week. And I do not use that figuratively: Wikipedia edits are timed, and if you plot them, the timecard for “Philip Cross’s” Wikipedia activity is astonishing if it is one individual.’

https://www.mintpressnews.com/phillip-cross-the-mystery-wiki...


Both these articles are from 2018. It would be remiss of you not to mention the 2018 ArbCom case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests...

> Philip Cross has engaged in a personalized, public, off-wiki dispute with George Galloway while simultaneously making significant content edits to George Galloway’s article over an extended period of time.

> Philip Cross has demonstrated a conflict of interest with respect to George Galloway and certain other individuals in the area of post-1978 British politics.

But also:

> There is no evidence to indicate that Philip Cross has used alternate accounts or sockpuppets to edit or support his views on-wiki, nor that he has coordinated with any other editors, outside individuals, or organizations in his editing.

ArbCom took a very dim view of Galloway's, and another Wikipedian's, attempts to "out" Cross's identity.

Ultimately, ArbCom banned Cross from doing _any_ editing on "post-1978 British politics, broadly construed". That is an enormously wide topic ban.

You can also see from his user contributions and the block log that he has been banned by admins for repeatedly defying his topic ban. A 1-week ban in August 2018, a 1-month ban in November 2021, a 3-month ban in July 2022... and now he has a PERMANENT ban since last month. He can't appeal for at least a year.

It doesn't seem like a shadowy cabal to me, it sounds like one person who does nothing but edit all day. Wikipedia has quite a few such users, and that's why there's a big list of contentious topics which are more heavily patrolled and restricted than the rest of Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_sanctions#Ac...


Is there a book or long form of Wikipedia’s contentious history? Would make interesting reading I’d think


George Galloway, Craig Murray and MintPress News are also propagandists (possibly even state-backed judging from their positive attitude to authoritarian regimes), not some objective truth seekers.


Ok - but they don't claim to be otherwise (except state-backed, I guess). That doesn't make the factual claims in the GP's post false. If you ever catch them getting into wiki edit wars you can hold them up as an example of political propaganda on wikipedia too.


The crux of their problem with "Philip Cross" is not the amount of his edits (he could be a disabled person without other hobbies after all), but that he fact-checks pro-authoritarian propaganda (and that's why this was reported by "Russian state-owned outlets Sputnik and RT" - quote from BBC story).


The crux of the GP's comment is a specific example of a high-profile political propagandist on Wikipedia, whom the poster specifically ran into. I think your characterization of the "guy", that he "fact-checks pro-authoritarian propaganda", is just a positive rephrasing of "political propagandist."

It doesn't seem relevant what George Galloway and Mint Press News' problem with "Philip Cross" is, just whether the evidence they present that he is an extremely prolific editor is true (seems to be the case). It seems to be up to your personal judgment whether you think this strongly implies he's not an individual or not. Certainly it's relevant information supporting the claim that he's not.


I can imagine that who controls or enforce what is posted on Wikipedia, controls at least partially the narrative. How often is wikipedia used as fact check?


Craig Murray? sigh


I am not British and don’t know who that is. FWIW I was not editing anything related to British politics.


reading your comment, brought me to the following article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33684686 (october, 22, The Hunt for Wikipedia's Disinformation Moles)


If you feel there is a problem with unsubstantiated claims on the page, please edit the page and add “citation needed” tags to those claims. Here’s how to add them, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed

If the overall article needs more citations then you can edit the page and apply the “more citations needed” tag, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:More_citations_need...

Here’s an overview of Wikipedia’s approach to site reliability. Lots of tools to help flag content that needs verification and there are lists of volunteer opportunities to clean up content that had been flagged. Check it out, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Reliab....


Counterargument: none of these work if the page is edit-protected. There you just have to trust that the admins with edit access are acting in good faith. From my experience, they usually do, though.


Wikipedia is not the source of propaganda, but it is targeted by propagandists and people wanting to shape the world's collective memory. Calling Wikipedia the source is a lot like calling the phone company the source of debt collection calls.


But doesnt wikipedia solicit donations that get funnelled to wikimedia, which is a political entity? So they are kinda both the source and the conduit


Wikimedia does not edit the content on Wikipedia, so they are not the source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikimedia_Foundation


As someone who wants Wikipedia to stop begging me for money it doesn't really need, I want that to be the main complaint here. I don't want it to be about what the Wikimedia Foundation is spending that money on, because suddenly the story becomes a referendum on whether you like the subject of their donations or not. What they're spending on doesn't actually matter very much, and focusing on it turns the issue into a dog whistle. It makes this another battle in the ideological trench warfare we're locked in, where people choose sides not based on what's happening, but on their prior affiliations. Please, when talking about this, just make it about a company that has all the money it needs, but keeps asking you for more, and try as much as you can to leave the politics out of it.


They shouldn’t be spending money on donations for either side of the culture war.


The encyclopedia is giant and highly decentralized. It will elude any simple characterization like this. Wikipedia's vast and distributed community of editors maintains a policy that it is not a place for original research. Thus, in general, Wikipedia is not a source for anything - it is a medium for information from other places. Personally I think the fact that it is a good model for how to distribute information since it is unequivocally open in terms of viewing the history and discussions around an article. Any claim can be contested by anyone willing to take the time and make their case. I realize that both of these steps are unrealistic for a large number of people but these are also the minimal requirements of any non-centralized source of information.


> The encyclopedia is giant and highly decentralized.

At least in Germany it's highly centralized for any topic that is even slightly political. I forgot the exact percentage, but it's in the realm of 95%+ is editted by a few dozen people for all topics that are even slightly political and spreads a numbers of expertises they seemingly have.

Most German Wikipedians probably know Felikz and Kopilot or the Politburo of Wikipedia in general.

edit: It's Kopilot not Copilot.


> Thus, in general, Wikipedia is not a source for anything - it is a medium for information from other places

How you choose to present that information + which particular sources you choose to cite on a given topic is absolutely susceptible to bias and propaganda efforts.


whatever the merits of this particular claim, the vulnerability of Wikipedia to subversion should be pretty clear for all of us. If you were NatSec it would be a simple matter to recruit or train a few editors to focus on and continually update / amend a contested topic. Even KPI's could be pretty simple to manage - 'ensure mentions of [insert targeted country] always carries [insert pejorative Y]'


It would be equally simple for a few citizens of [insert targeted country] to contest the claims that it is linked with [insert pejorative Y].

The open nature of the encyclopedia means that there is at the very least a record of the controversy and in general a countervailing force against such distortions. While an open project like Wikipedia is more vulnerable to this type of attack it is also more resilient to this style of attack but the exact same reasons.


true but there would be a massive resource imbalance. A small team of paid professionals whose job was solely wikipedia edits would quickly overwhelm the efforts of well meaning amateurs.

Additionally, there is a market size problem. For example, a highly literate, politically mobilised population would out-edit a less literate, politically apathetic competitor.


> true but there would be a massive resource imbalance. A small team of paid professionals whose job was solely wikipedia edits would quickly overwhelm the efforts of well meaning amateurs.

Is this a real problem, in the USA at least? Trump spent literal billions to have armies of paid professionals make him look good and still lost the popular vote by millions.

> For example, a highly literate, politically mobilised population would out-edit a less literate, politically apathetic competitor.

Politically mobilized populations will trounce everything, the sky is the limit. Controlling Wikipedia is one of the least interesting thing they could do.

Wikipedia did not cause culture wars.


> Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any controversial topics or people.

Maybe this is true for certain modern topics, but I was able to learn most of 20th century history due to Wikipedia. Want to read about MK Ultra? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra. Want to read about Japan's human experimentation program and how the US offered them immunity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731. Obviously this stuff is never going to be taught in school (maybe in undergrad history program, but who majors in history?). But it's on Wikipedia.

In terms of non-controversial topics, there's tons of value on Wikipedia as well. There is a broad collection of informative math and physics articles, I have read many of them and would argue they're useful. And also like one for every species of butterfly and virus.

In terms of modern AND controversial topics, I agree that Wikipedia is sometimes the target of some bullshit psyops and corporate whitewashing. But if you're willing to cut through that, lots of articles have useful information, like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War. Even the title is relatively unbiased (unless you're in the west :) ). You don't go to Wikipedia for a peer reviewed article that's 100% accurate and defensible, you go to get a straight answer that's 90% correct, when every journalist and public figure is spewing a load of hot shit. And that's why, for example, when you Google "Darrell Brooks" the top suggestion is "Darrell Brooks wiki".

So yeah, I gave them 100 bucks. I don't care what they do with it. If they donate it to the Dr. Evil Foundation for Evil or somebody, fine whatever. As long as Wikipedia stays up.

I have a backup as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download


Given the examples of bias you provide - bullshit psyops and corporate whitewashing - and even more given the fact that you do not mention the political/ideological bias many if not most 'politically sensitive topics' have I can but assume that you do not notice that bias because it happens to coincide with your own standpoints and as such just assume those biased statements to be true and worthy of note. Just imagine what you would have thought of Wikipedia had all those entries been biased towards the 'other' side to get an idea of just how strong the bias is. Imagine a lauding article on e.g. Trump where anything critical of the man was quickly edited out. When you try to add some common sense to the clearly biased article you're met with a string of reverts without any clear explanation other that 'not noteworthy', 'unreliable source' or 'against the NPOV'. You try again and again but hit the same wall every time. After trying to add some balanced information to the clearly flawed entry you receive a warning from an administrator who tells you that edit warring is not tolerated.

That is what many if not most people mean when they state that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any controversial topic or people.


I looked through the linked claim that Wikipedia is biased and it seems like the bias is not putting a particular political agenda front and center. In the example is the Wikipedia article not talking about highly dubious Fox news "scandals" during the Obama presidency; I checked the Donald Trump article and he gets the same treatment.

I like the bias of not treating politics as a set of "scandals" just like the media does. It is likely that being an international effort, the English Wikipedia avoids voting in a particular partisan bias, even if it doesn't appear to be so for other languages.



> Wikipedia Is a Source of Political Propaganda

> Although the free online encyclopedia is good at general information about broad topics, it’s terribly inaccurate for anything political, contentions or controversial.

No. Who would have thought ?


Shocking to learn there’s bias in user curated content on the internet.


All content is user-curated, it's just a matter of whether those users are corporations, random people, etc


Sadly it's far more pervasive than just political content.


Why is this downvoted?

I can't count the number of times where I've come across some boring, mundane topic and quickly figured out (by observing reality conflicting with what I'm seeing) that the discourse is dominated by one group or another who come into it with their own assumptions.


In Argentina Wikipedia is notorious for parroting Kirchnerist propaganda. There are people whose entire job is to make sure every topic related to Argentinian politics follows Kirchner's narrative


Precisely why I've never given anything more than traffic to Jimmy Wales.

I don't know how that sad pack of Winston Smiths they call editors rationalizes its behavior , and I don't want to know.


Let's look at one of the suggested alternatives this blog post endorses.

First one on the list, "Wikispooks". Interestingly, Wikipedia does not have an article on Wikispooks, but Wikispooks does have an article about Wikipedia!

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Wikipedia

It seems to be headlined with with subpages for their concerns about Wikipedia. Let's see:

   Wikipedia/Hasbara | Systematic gatekeeping for Jewish interest on Wikipedia
Oh dear.


I trust the co-founder Larry Sanger, Wikipedia is a hate site masquerading as an encyclopedia. The valid pages provide cover for the propaganda.


>I posted dude defending himself on Tim Pool's platform

There is half your problem. Tim Pool generally is not a valid journalistic source. He regularly fails to fact check, citing inflammatory rhetoric in the process for a double whammy of bad journalism.

In fact, in terms of avoiding misinformation, Pool is as inadequate for the task as citing Ben Shapiro or Alex Jones.

While I agree that Wikimedia should not be funding non-Wikipedia activities with funds raised through Wikipedia, that does not mean hit pieces like this get to start being sloppy without recourse.


> "In fact, in terms of avoiding misinformation, Pool is as inadequate for the task as citing Ben Shapiro or Alex Jones."

Or any of the numerous corporate media (MSNBC, NY TIMES, CNN, FOX NEWS, etc.) that have clearly been spreading misinformation for donkey's years.


I did not mention legacy media on purpose.

I said "as" inadequate. The constructed narratives and data cherrypicking of fringe entertainers like Shapiro and Jones are more frequent and more damaging than the selective reporting and factual confusions of mainstream media. The financial motivations are also slightly different as legacy media is impacted by different billionaire spending vs political infotainers.

Or more plainly: the point was not to say "aha, see, Pool and Shapiro and Jones are the ONLY sources of misinformation, and by omitting, say, the BBC, I think its fine to watch them because they are definitely trustworthy*" - I was saying the three mentioned infotainers are all on the same level. That's an important distinction.


Yawn, yet another right winger claiming that their terrible views are unpopular because of censorship when really its because most people simply disagree.

See also, them advocating to read hidden/downvoted comments because "There is a wealth of information found in views that are not widely held or considered controversial.". https://battlepenguin.com/tech/read-from-the-bottom/ Anyone who reads hidden/downvoted comments on social media knows that the vast majority are just unhinged idiotic rants or a stream of slurs.


Right wing views are objectively censored on social media and Wikipedia. “Idiotic rants” are valid free speech and censorship of profanity is a deflection.


Free speech has no place on Wikipedia. It's supposed to be an encyclopedia, and to summarize the contents of primary sources, not a way for specific people to spread their opinions.


I think this is highlighting an important point. People seem to be using different definitions of "free speech."

It appears one side is arguing against what we might call "Free Speech (tm)" while others are arguing in favor of the moral/ethical principle of not restricting the free exchange of ideas. Thus the two sides end up talking past each other.


I'm not sure what is "Free Speech (tm)", but I'd say neither version belongs on Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is supposed to be a collection of facts, not of self-expression. Eg, we see here on the front page that Fred Brooks passed away on Nov 18, 2022. That's either a fact or it isn't. If it is a fact, then that's what his article should contain.


"Free Speech (tm)" is what you appear to be arguing against. If I had to guess, you envision people who are vocal about free speech as holding views you disagree with. Whereas as a moral/ethical principle, you cannot have a Wikipedia without the free exchange of ideas - whether it's fact or opinion.


> "Free Speech (tm)" is what you appear to be arguing against.

And what would that be?

> If I had to guess, you envision people who are vocal about free speech as holding views you disagree with.

This has nothing to do with Wikipedia. My contention is that Wikipedia is not for "speech" at all, of any kind.

Eg, this is not "free speech" in any of its meanings: "New York, often called New York City (NYC),[a] is the most populous city in the United States. With a 2020 population of 8,804,190 distributed over 300.46 square miles (778.2 km2), New York City is also the most densely populated major city in the United States."

That's a factual statement that can have been compiled by an AI. It's not an expression of the views or opinions of any single person, and one that can be extracted from maps and databases.

> Whereas as a moral/ethical principle, you cannot have a Wikipedia without the free exchange of ideas - whether it's fact or opinion.

True, but the actual contents of Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to constitute exchanges of ideas.


> This has nothing to do with Wikipedia. My contention is that Wikipedia is not for "speech" at all, of any kind.

This is exactly my point - "speech" in this context means the exchange of ideas, not taken literally as making sounds with your mouth. So perhaps my point would make more sense if you s/speech/free exchange of ideas/

Without a free exchange of ideas, how do you form a consensus of what is or is not fact?

I could argue that your NY reference is indeed free speech in that you are making a statement of fact or opinion in a public forum.


> Without a free exchange of ideas, how do you form a consensus of what is or is not fact?

By having free exchange of ideas allowed outside of Wikipedia, and forbidden on Wikipedia itself.

I'm saying the free exchange of ideas doesn't belong on Wikipedia pages specifically.


But the talk-page discussion of what is supportable and what belongs on those pages should not be censored by political opinion.


You’re right about free speech on Wikipedia but see the linked article where the co-founder declares Wikipedia to be political propaganda. Primary sources are biased against conservatives when they come from left-wing propaganda publications.

Social media however IS meant for specific people to spread their opinions and conservative opinions are censored there.


ya gotta source on that one buddy? I remain skeptical that there even is such a thing as "objectively" on this subject, but every time I see someone trying to look into or tally this up the main social media platforms are slightly-to-somewhat more tolerant of fringe right views than they are fringe left.

A confounder here is that social media inherits a lot of american political bias, and america has no mainstream left. Right leaning people interpret center and even center-right positions as "leftist" but that doesn't make it so.


On the covid-misinformation page there are a lot of things that wouldn't be listed as a conspiracy theory if Trump hadn't said them. (I'm saying this as a foreigner.)

For instance, is the Wuhan lab the source of the virus? The correct answer is we don't know, and by now may never. The investigations just weren't done and they're about as detailed and exacting as those for an air crash. Without that it's all just guesses.

The article says that "Covid came from a lab" is misinformation, but not that "Covid DIDN"T come from a lab" is also misinformation.

I spent weeks trying to explain that a source which says "there is no evidence" means no evidence either way. It kept coming back to them saying they felt this paternalistic need to prevent the dumbs from getting the wrong opinion and because Trump had said it and the repubs are dumb, that there was a higher burden to represent that view as wrong than to represent the other views as also wrong!

In the end the article just ended up sounding like CNN. So much for unbiased.


Fact checks are biased against conservative views. Warning labels for left wing political ideas like global warming are attached to posts on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube which are patronizing and censorious. A quick search found dozens of examples that backup my point but perhaps a source you might accept showing Conservative censorship comes from Pew Research: https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2020/08/19/most-america...


> Fact checks are biased against conservative views.

This is literally that old joke that "reality has a liberal bias" right? I do agree.


Your citation doesn't appear to say that right wing views are more censored, only that right wingers think they're more censored.


Conservators feel like they are being censored because they are and liberals who support censorship are behind it.


> left wing political ideas like global warming

There's your problem. That's not a "left wing political idea," that's a fact that right wingers just don't like.


1. Wikipedia is supposed to be objective truth. Right wing and left wing views are opinions on how the world should be, so neither belong on Wikipedia.

2. What right wing views are censored on social media? Superiority of capitalism over other economic systems? Less taxes leading to better prosperity? Reduced government regulation lets innovation flourish? Welfare programs are a waste of money? I see these views get debated and their pros and cons pointed out, not censored.


It's the same with left wing views. You just don't see them because well, they're censored. What's is seemingly a uniquely right phenomenon is viewing the annoyingly centrist stuff that is allowed on the internet as left.

Like yes, it's on your left, but it's not left by any stretch of imagination.


I do enjoy reading the Wikipedia article on particular hot button topics.

And medical articles are also very frequently biased/agenda driven.

Often it's a complete fantasy omitting any real world painful facts.

I'm easily entertained but a recent one from a week ago was the article on Monkeypox outbreak within the UK[0]. The current UK strategy from the likes of PHE is to vaccinate gay & bisexual men.

It's been a sore topic in the UK, but literally no mention in the article.

The NHS article mentions it [1].

So the world's most popular encyclopaedia, sanitizer its 'truth'.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_monkeypox_outbreak_in_t...

[1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/monkeypox/


There is no conspiracy. The main article (linked to in the first sentence of this one) says pretty clearly:

"While anyone can get monkeypox, to date the majority of confirmed cases outside of the endemic regions in Africa occurred in young or middle-aged men who have sex with men (MSM) who had recent sexual contact with new or multiple partners."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_monkeypox_outbreak


You seem to be part of the cover up!

The fact you likely aren't even aware of the incredible controversy around this topic makes clear the santization is working.


>I do enjoy reading the Wikipedia article on particular hot button topics.

Read the "Talk" page too on those


I don't know what you do here. It's being omitted because the alternative is pouring fire on the campaigns by anti-lgbt groups who are trying to use the outbreak as an opportunity to spread the "gay men are pedophile groomers" narrative whenever a child catches monkeypox which when people believe this garbage manifests in real life harm.

Could you explain this whole controversy in the Wikipedia article? Yes, but doing that is also divisive so you just ignore it since it's not that important in the grand scheme of things.


This is the problem though, people who are "informed" of the culture war (on either side) have been given a list of dog whistles which are "facts" - true data but which can supposedly be bent to service of enemy objectives.

I've seen so many of these in the last few years who people on the talk pages are literally saying "Yes, but we can't let the Rep/Dem party benefit from this!"

An example of this that I saw was the "86-45" kerfuffle. To eighty-six something means dispose of, in some contexts to kill, and when someone was referenced saying this about trump (president 45) the fans of whoever said it went to Wiki and removed years-old references to the term meaning kill. It was obviously a reasonable statement meaning vote-out in context but they weren't happy letting people read the article and form the correct opinion - they wanted to censor all "potentially misleading" facts.


How about just having the encyclopedia stick to the facts?

It's not all anti-LGBT stuff although, that is perennial.

But there were doubts around the vaccine safety and effectiveness.

And the campaign was secretive (invites asked you not to disclose to others it was happening).


It’s a very important fact and an objective source should include it. This is a great example of the article’s thesis.


I'm confused about what you're implying has been "sanitized" from this article. there's no indication in the edit history that someone has added or removed any information about the vaccine strategy.


Not that such a history of edits and reverts are required for there to be santization.

But there are edits and reverts and removed versions of the article... So what are you getting at?


This person is complaining about right-wing nutjobs — the Project Veritas person in this case — being mistreated. This is not worth further investigation.


Not just political. Half the articles I read are spun like pr pieces lately, at least when it comes to organizations and people (even dead people)

Random one I read last night

> The realization that Fitzgerald had improved as a novelist to point that Gatsby was a masterwork was immediately evident to certain members of the literary world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._Scott_Fitzgerald

Editors aren’t even trying to appear objective any more. It’s like the news. I think this is becoming the commonplace on Wikipedia and I hate it


The quality of the topic directly correlates with the quality of editors it attracts.

So of course The Great Gatsby is going to have a terrible article. Because it's a miserable book

If you care so much about The Great Gatsby, then you should invest your time improving the article.


The implication, I suppose, being that I’m a low quality person? Charming


The article references https://infogalactic.com as a WP alternative.

Constrast: https://infogalactic.com/info/Graham_Linehan with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Linehan

- I think the author may have a point. Regardless of what you think about the person in question, the former seems far more encyclopaedic and neutral (though perhaps missing a necessary paragraph on his unpopular beliefs).


Cess pits are useful.

Infogalactic, not so much. Complaining that Wikipedia is a source of propaganda and then citing Infogalactic as a balance is a mistake on the order of comparing Reuters and the Babylon Bee.

I refer you to https://infogalactic.com/info/Bibhorr


I was specifically citing the contrast between the two articles.

I know little of IG, but IG’s is what I’d expect an encyclopaedic article on this subject to look like, with (as I said) the inclusion of a paragraph about his views on sex and gender.

WP’s puts his views (ideologically slanted as anti-trans rather than as he sees them gender critical) front and centre, and thereby characterises him as a bad person. Many people believe he is, but it’s not WPs place to authoritatively decide that, or the “Which is more real, sex or gender?” debate, or brand dissenters as immoral wrong-thinkers, or format articles to assert that stance. Ideally, WP should be far more factual and neutral.

NB: This isn’t meant to be about the Trans issue, I used that subject as an illustration of the kind of thing I personally see as ideological bias in WP.


His views probably are anti-trans, but if you consider trans to be, approximately, claiming to be a member of the opposite sex to what you actually are, and advocating for changes in law and policy that act as if that claim is true - then this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a sociopolitical viewpoint.

To draw the distinction further, not everyone with sex dysphoria (gender dysphoria) is trans. For example, some were previously, but are now detrans. Others just deal with it without making claims of being the opposite sex.

I would contend that gender critical is a subtype of anti-trans, broadly based on an ideological rejection of gendered stereotyping. The other major subtype involves convictions based on religious beliefs. Less popular subtypes include, for example, skepticism of the consumerist aspect of trans that may follow from holding an anti-capitalist worldview.

Holding anti-trans beliefs does have connotations of being a bad thing, but this is mostly because pro-trans activists have latched onto pro-LGB activism.


The "anti-trans" label is a rejection of false balance, not a particular ideological stance. It's roughly in line with Wikipedia's broader policy of rejecting "softening" labels that groups use to obscure their positions. Compare, for example, the white supremacists who call themselves "race realists."


That’s the stated rationale, but with respect I disagree that it isn’t ideological or slanted.

In my experience in the UK people who describe themselves as gender critical are older left-leaning (majority lesbian) women and hold their long held (1970s onwards) beliefs in good faith and from a position of pro-female / pro same sex-attracted rights, and resistance to gender as a useful social construct.

They’re not anti-trans by primary motivation - it’s that the logical consequence of what they believe about the nature of sex and gender leads them to believe that “Trans-X aren’t X”. But from an opposing ideological viewpoint this is deemed definitionally transphobic, and the slant becomes evident when it’s asserted that this transphobic sentiment is and must be at the heart of what motivates gender critical beliefs - “They espouse their beliefs as racists espouse ‘race realism’ - as a guise to discriminate against the other”.

But in this case it’s simply not true, and denying that citing “false balance” is in itself biased and disingenuous.


> They’re not anti-trans by primary motivation - it’s that the logical consequence of what they believe about the nature of sex and gender leads them to believe that “Trans-X aren’t X”.

This reasoning is suspect: most people don't wake up and decide to be "Anti-X" as a "primary" motivation; they're "Anti-X" because it adheres to all kinds of other positions they have, and humans are pattern-matching beings.

In other words: most people exhibit prejudice not for its own sake, but for some other sake. This doesn't meaningfully change the fact that it would be correct to label them as prejudiced.


It doesn’t follow that beliefs held negative about an opposing group are necessarily prejudiced, though.

Atheists aren’t anti-theists, for example - atheists who value empirical rationalism as a true and positive philosophy generate beliefs felt as negative (or even threatening) by devout theists. Nevertheless, it’s not fair to characterise atheists as anti-theists, or primarily motivated by prejudice against theists.


This is one of the dog whistles I mentioned in an earlier post. Women asking for sex-based rights such as female-only sports.

An example of this is the LGB Association in the UK. They're a homosexual rights organization and they talk about sex-based rights. They're currently undergoing a tribunal to strip their charity status depending on in their charitable goals match their actions.

Wiki editors have gamed what sources are considered reliable until they're all the ones that condemn this organization and none that support them. The article doesn't actually mention any of their words or stated goals, just what you're supposed to think about them ("anti-trans agenda, etc") and the criticism section is even worse. None of the sources explicitly used for criticism is even criticizing their actual words - just the supposedly hidden meaning.

> Wikipedia's broader policy of rejecting "softening" labels that groups use to obscure their positions

Pro-Up isn't Anti-Down. There's a big difference between pro-woman and anti-trans and trying to "unsoften" one into the other is trying to put words in people's mouths.


The counterpoint to this is that Wikipedia's article contains everything that the other one does, and also contains all of the things that Linehan is currently well known for.


No, subtly different. It contains all the things, and the proper slant on those things, that activist editors want GL to be known for regardless of the actual prevalence of people talking about that. I doubt even 1% of people who know his name know that he's involved in "gender critical" debate, let alone his views.

Further, these ideological corrections are always biased because they're based on outrage articles and nobody writes counterpoint articles in which nothing happened and nothing is wrong. "Dog does not bite man".

Nobody is going to pen a Guardian article saying "GL can tell the difference between the type of people who give birth and those who do not" because we all can and it's just not interesting. But if a few people working for Pink News and Gawker write that GL's statements are actually dog-whistles designed to stigmatize "fake women" or something, then all of a sudden 100% of the sources agree that he's committing literal violence against trans folx.

Another article was attempting to trans an 18th century person. They said "Oh, it's okay, we'll also accept reliable sources that say they weren't a trans man" as if such a source could even exist.

The point isn't his positions but that Wikipedia is a platform for activists to pick and choose which words to amplify or to amplify pushback against, and our rules for academic sources break down entirely in a culture war where new sources can be spun up in an instant. This is giving undue weight to certain elements and ignoring others.


This is a lot of defense, which is sort of irrelevant. All I've said is that Linehan's current public status and notability centers around each of the things mentioned in his Wikipedia article, which is...exactly what Wikipedia is supposed to be for.

The material content of his positions isn't that important to me; only that Wikipedia doesn't conveniently omit those positions.


The problem is the undue weight given to the opinion of those who show up for editing and debating "reliable" sources, and political purity tests during these events. Self-selected editors often don't share the interests of readers of their articles.

There's a no-false-balance policy which means the moon-landing-hoax theory doesn't need to get mentioned on every article related to space.

Why is your view, or anti-view, important enough that it should be mentioned, such that you'd say it was omitted if it wasn't there?


The wikipedia one has an extensive edit history going back to 2006, the Infogalactic one seems to have a single revision, presumably copied from Wikipedia at some point in 2016.


This from a site that brings you such nuggets of wisdom like

In the past few years, I’ve become increasingly more aware at how conservatives will simply state the facts, or praise what they appreciate, when an ideological adversary dies. In contrast, progressives and our legacy media will often write horrific hit pieces when someone on the opposite end of the spectrum passes away.

No bias there at all.


You could put the entire thing in the context he framed it in:

> I was living in Wellington, New Zealand when Margaret Thatcher died. Some people I knew threw a party at Hotel Bristol, a pub on Cuba Street. I knew nothing about Thatcher, but I assumed she must have been pretty bad if friends of mine were singing “Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead” in her wake. Today, activist still literally piss on her grave1.

> Years later in Seattle, I worked with a British woman who grew up under Thatcher. She was horrified when people celebrated the death of someone who was an inspiration to many young women all over the United Kingdom. In the past few years, I’ve become increasingly more aware at how conservatives will simply state the facts, or praise what they appreciate, when an ideological adversary dies.

If the author hung out with a bunch of people and observed this happening, and then later talked to a British woman who gave him a different perspective, can you at least see why that bias developed? I mean ... his friends threw a party when a prime minister they probably weren't even alive for died.


is the statement inaccurate?


The number of cases to examine is small enough to make it difficult to extract a trend, and the nature of the question is very subjective, but my best attempt at an observation is that the described behavior is one of the many personality/cognitive faults that people on both sides of politics exhibit in roughly equal measures. I think an observation of a strong bias in one direction here might be due to other factors (e.g. biases that affect one's exposure to these things).


Oh yes, it’s an entirely objective observation. /s


People sure love to hate Wikipedia. I wonder why.


No, we love Wikipedia and all the abuses bother us more than we benefit from a momentary partisan edge.


Small potatoes when at the end of the day wikipedia is one of the few great websites we have left.

No ads, tracking, or megacorps. Plenty of transparency.


There's a collective of thought police massaging a lot of the content to convey a certain narrative and it's all done under the veil of "transparent community-driven moderation".

I wouldn't be surprised if much of this effort is done by the megacorps you claim aren't involved.


Could you provide an example?


As the article of this post points out Larry Sanger is pretty vocal about how biased the content is and how changes to try and provide any semblance of a fair and balanced perspective are edited out of existence oftentimes by small numbers of people.


"Larry Sanger, one of the original founders of Wikipedia, has openly stated that Wikipedia is clearly biased." Larry Sanger is a nut. The section 230 "analysis" is bs too .




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