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> But if banks and major retailers who have huge budgets can get hacked, of course we can too.

Here's the thing: banks and major retailers can't get hacked. At least, not in the sense you're using "hacked".

When Target's credit card systems were compromised, resulting in the CEO resigning and and about $300M in costs to the company to deal with the breach, not one customer lost a penny.

When $171M from Union Bank of India was fraudulently wired via NYC to two Cambodian banks and one Thai one, they got all the money wired back within a day.

The traditional banking system is designed to be unhackable, because the numbers on computers are not authoritative. They're a cache, and they're periodically reconciled, but humans (and other computers!) will look at the cache during reconciliation for obvious attacks like these. A bank can call up another bank, or a retailer can call up a credit card company, or whatever, and say, "Hey, these transactions were fraudulent, please reverse them," and it'll happen. Target did that. Union Bank did that. A hacker can get to some bank's MySQL database? Sure, whatever, it's not what matters. Definitely it's a greater headache than if they got to the bank's website, but at the end of the day it's exactly as fixable as hackers getting to the website.

There are a lot of bright people trying very hard and putting honest work into a problem that simply doesn't need to be solved and shouldn't be solved: making the computers authoritative. When you do that, you're suddenly hackable. When you do that, of course $16M gets actually stolen irrevocably from time to time, no matter how bright you are or how honest your work is.




I'm inclined to agree but I must say this traditional system is unscalable. Sure it can detect millions of dollars of fraudulent transactions, but what if it's a single person who's the victim of identity theft and lost just a few thousand dollars? A few thousand dollars is nothing in the grand scheme of things but they are a lot to a single individual.


I've had calls from my bank's fraud detection department about single transactions of less than fifty pounds that they were concerned weren't from me, so clearly the traditional system is plenty scalable enough.


Doesn't this happen every day, over trivially small sums? You've never heard of a credit card chargeback?


Right, and also, a good part of why credit cards have 2-3% overhead is essentially insurance against chargebacks. I'd rather pay $51 for groceries every week than $50 for groceries plus a risk of irrevocably losing tens of thousands of dollars at some point with no warning.

If cryptocurrencies think that they can provide this service for substantially cheaper than 2-3% (note that this is an additional service on top of simply making the transfer happen, so mining fees aren't the right thing to compare), that sounds awesome, but also I'd like to understand why it's possible.


Even that 2-3% is way high, in some places like Europe and Australia, interchange fees are capped at values around 0.3% and that doesn't seem to be a hindrance in getting business done.


But Bitcoin and Ethereum can do this too. In fact Ethereum already has done it (and is arguably designed to do it). Ethereum simply has to convince a majority of the participants to fix the bug and reset to a good hash (whereas bitcoin would need a majority of the mining power unless they went out of band and used old school politics/force/coercion).


They did this already? I'm guessing it happened in the dao accident?

If so, this seems terrifying, what if I had accepted stolen ETH to sell physical goods?


The stolen DAO funds were sitting in a time-locked account and couldn't be spent for several weeks.


It seems to match the real world in some ways; If I barter and end up accepting stolen physical goods, things can go rather badly for me.


yes, but in many (most?) legal systems you cannot change the rules so you are liable for past events.

I.e. if you accept counterfeit money, it's on you, but your money should not become counterfeit overnight.


From this and your previous comments, I am trying to figure out your basic point. Would you summarize it as, "I have a low tolerance for financial risk and others should think as I do"?


I don't think that's a good way to summarize my point - I have expressed no opinion about financial risk, either my own or others. (Did you mean to address someone else?)

However, whatever financial risk you would like to tolerate, you should make sure you're pursuing goals that do in fact match that financial risk, and that you're not concluding that something more or less risky than it is because you are uninformed. Also, if you are tolerating increased risk, you should do so because there is a purpose for it (e.g, better potential upside), not because high financial risk seems inherently cool. It isn't, and I will certainly defend that point, but it's just a lemma on the way to my actual point.

Arguing that it's okay that cryptocurrencies are hackable because the traditional financial system is hackable is simply factually incorrect: it's a misunderstanding of why the existing financial system looks the way it does, and why its risk tolerances are built the way it is (not a lot done to secure transactions, but a lot done to be able to reverse transactions if needed).

If you really want a simple point out of me, I think G. K. Chesterton made it in 1929:

> In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

If you do not understand the existing financial system, you cannot honestly claim that your new one is better. First figure out how it works and why, and get that right, then you can describe how your changes are improvements.




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